5 ms·

UK passport images database could be used to catch shoplifters

20 points by mindracer 3y ago

gumballindie 3y ago
To be fair britain does have a crime problem and a money problem. Since it cant finance the police it could leverage the existing government owned database of people’s pictures to catch criminals faster. Should look into driving license photos as well.
- rcarr 3y ago
  Driving license and passport photos are the same in the UK now. When you get your passport photo taken now the photo booth gives you a digital link which you put in the application. And then when you renew your driving license it uses the photo from the passport. I'm not 100% sure but I think there's an option to use another photo but I expect the vast majority will just use the passport one.
  - rjh29 3y ago
    I just took a photo with my phone, so I don't have a link.
- beezlewax 3y ago
  You're talking about mass surveillance of the population as if it were normal. We're sleep walking into a nightmarish dystopia one piece of tech at a time.
  - djohnston 3y ago
    People are openly looting businesses with impunity because of overstretched police and weak prosecution. Bring out the models.
    - DoItToMe81 3y ago
      The police have been subject to raiding of funds and budget cuts every election for the last twenty years. Rubbing salt into the wound by creating the capability for severe overreach is not the solution.
- chmod775 3y ago
  I'd rather have crime and money problems than a surveillance state problem.
  - djohnston 3y ago
    Disagree tbh. Sick of the crime, happy to be surveilled not committing crimes.
    - chmod775 3y ago
      Most violent crimes are crimes of passion and not committed by a rational actor. Murder is most likely comitted at home. Surveillance cameras aren't going to do anything. Other crime problems - especially shoplifting - can also be solved other ways. There's no need to barter away liberty and especially not to catch a few extra shoplifters. That's making deals with Mephisto because someone stepped on your toes. In the past 100 years the UK had front-row seats to multiple surveillance states in Europe that were as bad as it gets, yet somehow refuses to learn absolutely any lesson from it. With our new technology, the new generation of surveillance state is much worse. Governments naturally accumulate power and hardly ever give it away without violence. Keeping that accumulation to a minimum trumps almost any other concern that can be solved without violence. Comments like yours, essentially saying "I'm fine with a surveillance state if it solves crime" make me lose hope. Maybe the UK going fully unhinged is a good thing. It can serve as a warning to the rest of the continent, reminding us what we have and why it is worth protecting.
      - djohnston 3y ago
        The West is degrading, we should become more like Singapore. If freedom means a bunch of junkies vomiting in Camden and organised youth gangs flash mobbing and ransacking businesses, maybe we've developed gout on our excess and need a liberty diet.
- didntknowya 3y ago
  leverage? as in sell out people's biometric data for profit? yea that's exactly what we were warned about
rcarr 3y ago
Co-Op alone is seeing a 1,000 incidents of shoplifting a day at the minute[1]. I'm wary of governments overstepping the mark and using this stuff for ill, but I'm leaning on the side of this being a legitimate use case. Of course, we also need solutions to address the societal reasons why people are turning to shoplifting and organised crime in the first place. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/21/co-op-boss-urges-police-to-take-shoplifting-more-seriously-after-33m-cost https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/21/co-op-boss-u...
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Meanwhile, on Mastodon’s feed of its most liked recent posts, I have repeatedly seen posts of the slogan “If you see someone shoplifting food, no you didn’t”. There definitely seem to be a lot of people in the tech world who believe that supermarket shoplifting should not be prosecuted or even reported.
  - PebblesHD 3y ago
    I usually see this remark associated with the idea of a struggling person stealing essentials, which I would probably not report either. At least in Australia, supermarkets are making record profits and increasing prices in the middle of a housing crisis so the general feeling is they can afford the loss, rightly or wrongly. As far as the article goes, I’m opposed to using these data sources for anything other than their original purpose, as it’s the same logic that would be used to test for example medically collected DNA against crime databases just in case.
  - Seanambers 3y ago
    Just as Rob Henderson said at the All in summit. It's basically a luxury belief. Rich tech folks isolated from the effects of stealing encourages poor people to steal and at some point face the consequences.
    - pasabagi 3y ago
      I see it as simple moral calculus. The right to eat is prior to the right to property. I don't see how any other position is morally defensible.
throwaway14356 3y ago
This would have been needlessly complicated if part of the EU.
- tinktank 3y ago
  It wouldn't have been possible (and rightfully so) if GB was EU.
  - throwaway14356 3y ago
    sorry for the joke, it is interesting to see the brexit "advantages" in action. I thought it would be uniformly bad for the brittons and haven't seen anything desirable let alone that makes it worth it
ianpenney 3y ago
https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-crack-fraudulent-passport-scheme-1.1823734 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-crack-fraudulent-passport-sch... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Michael_Wiwchar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Michael_Wiwchar Slightly different case in nature but analyzing all the passport photos for duplicates is a no brainer move and led to at least one arrest and extradition in Canada. They allegedly paid drug addicts to file false applications in their names with different photos.
dv_dt 3y ago
There is an evil doppelgänger problem given how bad the recognition is - or how seemingly unrelated people can look like one another. Good luck arguing that the database is wrong. And of course all of those problems are intensified for minorities or other out groups.
- ls612 3y ago
  If you have government ID stating you are someone other than the person they think they are looking for it’ll not take long for them to move on.
  - amoshi 3y ago
    Throw in proximity/place of residence and false positives go down too
    - dv_dt 3y ago
      Place of residence is low usefulness in proving innocence as people can travel. In wide enough use, there will be false positives including any proximity filter. The question is, is the system unbiased enough to protect innocents? There is a reason that every suspected crime photo isn't broadcast wide 24-7, even with human recognition, the false alarms would cause a massive churn and misguided justice.
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    Someone holds up a shop, it’s caught on ccd. The criminal is not caught and the media is matched to your photo. Your id paperwork is not going to help. You have become the person they’re looking for.
  - iudqnolq 3y ago
    Ask a postmaster
    - shubb 3y ago
      (Royal Mail, the privatised national mail carrier, had a bug in thier IT system which flagged a large number of franchise royal mail shop owners as stealing money. Even after RM became aware of the bug they continued to prosecute these franchise owners in civil and criminal court, and the courts believed RM as a big institution. Many owners were financially ruined with several suicides before they were vindicated) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal
tinktank 3y ago
LOL. Surprised it took this long. The UK government really really has zero respect for its citizens. Seems to hate them with a passion.
ralferoo 3y ago
I don't have any figures to back this up, but I'd imagine that a significant chunk of shoplifters are teenagers, and given the 10 year lifetime of passports, their passport photos probably bear little resemblance to what they look like now. I'd also imagine that another significant chunk of shoplifters are people who are struggling to get by financially, and if they're struggling to pay for food, they're not likely to be jetting off abroad on holiday and so unlikely to have paid £82 for a passport they don't need.

20 points by mindracer 3y ago

To be fair britain does have a crime problem and a money problem. Since it cant finance the police it could leverage the existing government owned database of people’s pictures to catch criminals faster. Should look into driving license photos as well.

rcarr 3y ago
Driving license and passport photos are the same in the UK now. When you get your passport photo taken now the photo booth gives you a digital link which you put in the application. And then when you renew your driving license it uses the photo from the passport. I'm not 100% sure but I think there's an option to use another photo but I expect the vast majority will just use the passport one.
- rjh29 3y ago
  I just took a photo with my phone, so I don't have a link.
beezlewax 3y ago
You're talking about mass surveillance of the population as if it were normal. We're sleep walking into a nightmarish dystopia one piece of tech at a time.
- djohnston 3y ago
  People are openly looting businesses with impunity because of overstretched police and weak prosecution. Bring out the models.
  - DoItToMe81 3y ago
    The police have been subject to raiding of funds and budget cuts every election for the last twenty years. Rubbing salt into the wound by creating the capability for severe overreach is not the solution.
chmod775 3y ago
I'd rather have crime and money problems than a surveillance state problem.
- djohnston 3y ago
  Disagree tbh. Sick of the crime, happy to be surveilled not committing crimes.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    Most violent crimes are crimes of passion and not committed by a rational actor. Murder is most likely comitted at home. Surveillance cameras aren't going to do anything. Other crime problems - especially shoplifting - can also be solved other ways. There's no need to barter away liberty and especially not to catch a few extra shoplifters. That's making deals with Mephisto because someone stepped on your toes. In the past 100 years the UK had front-row seats to multiple surveillance states in Europe that were as bad as it gets, yet somehow refuses to learn absolutely any lesson from it. With our new technology, the new generation of surveillance state is much worse. Governments naturally accumulate power and hardly ever give it away without violence. Keeping that accumulation to a minimum trumps almost any other concern that can be solved without violence. Comments like yours, essentially saying "I'm fine with a surveillance state if it solves crime" make me lose hope. Maybe the UK going fully unhinged is a good thing. It can serve as a warning to the rest of the continent, reminding us what we have and why it is worth protecting.
    - djohnston 3y ago
      The West is degrading, we should become more like Singapore. If freedom means a bunch of junkies vomiting in Camden and organised youth gangs flash mobbing and ransacking businesses, maybe we've developed gout on our excess and need a liberty diet.
didntknowya 3y ago
leverage? as in sell out people's biometric data for profit? yea that's exactly what we were warned about

rcarr 3y ago

Co-Op alone is seeing a 1,000 incidents of shoplifting a day at the minute[1]. I'm wary of governments overstepping the mark and using this stuff for ill, but I'm leaning on the side of this being a legitimate use case. Of course, we also need solutions to address the societal reasons why people are turning to shoplifting and organised crime in the first place. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/21/co-op-boss-urges-police-to-take-shoplifting-more-seriously-after-33m-cost https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/21/co-op-boss-u...

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Meanwhile, on Mastodon’s feed of its most liked recent posts, I have repeatedly seen posts of the slogan “If you see someone shoplifting food, no you didn’t”. There definitely seem to be a lot of people in the tech world who believe that supermarket shoplifting should not be prosecuted or even reported.
- PebblesHD 3y ago
  I usually see this remark associated with the idea of a struggling person stealing essentials, which I would probably not report either. At least in Australia, supermarkets are making record profits and increasing prices in the middle of a housing crisis so the general feeling is they can afford the loss, rightly or wrongly. As far as the article goes, I’m opposed to using these data sources for anything other than their original purpose, as it’s the same logic that would be used to test for example medically collected DNA against crime databases just in case.
- Seanambers 3y ago
  Just as Rob Henderson said at the All in summit. It's basically a luxury belief. Rich tech folks isolated from the effects of stealing encourages poor people to steal and at some point face the consequences.
  - pasabagi 3y ago
    I see it as simple moral calculus. The right to eat is prior to the right to property. I don't see how any other position is morally defensible.

throwaway14356 3y ago

This would have been needlessly complicated if part of the EU.

tinktank 3y ago
It wouldn't have been possible (and rightfully so) if GB was EU.
- throwaway14356 3y ago
  sorry for the joke, it is interesting to see the brexit "advantages" in action. I thought it would be uniformly bad for the brittons and haven't seen anything desirable let alone that makes it worth it

ianpenney 3y ago

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-crack-fraudulent-passport-scheme-1.1823734 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-crack-fraudulent-passport-sch... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Michael_Wiwchar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Michael_Wiwchar Slightly different case in nature but analyzing all the passport photos for duplicates is a no brainer move and led to at least one arrest and extradition in Canada. They allegedly paid drug addicts to file false applications in their names with different photos.

dv_dt 3y ago

There is an evil doppelgänger problem given how bad the recognition is - or how seemingly unrelated people can look like one another. Good luck arguing that the database is wrong. And of course all of those problems are intensified for minorities or other out groups.

ls612 3y ago
If you have government ID stating you are someone other than the person they think they are looking for it’ll not take long for them to move on.
- amoshi 3y ago
  Throw in proximity/place of residence and false positives go down too
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    Place of residence is low usefulness in proving innocence as people can travel. In wide enough use, there will be false positives including any proximity filter. The question is, is the system unbiased enough to protect innocents? There is a reason that every suspected crime photo isn't broadcast wide 24-7, even with human recognition, the false alarms would cause a massive churn and misguided justice.
- dv_dt 3y ago
  Someone holds up a shop, it’s caught on ccd. The criminal is not caught and the media is matched to your photo. Your id paperwork is not going to help. You have become the person they’re looking for.
- iudqnolq 3y ago
  Ask a postmaster
  - shubb 3y ago
    (Royal Mail, the privatised national mail carrier, had a bug in thier IT system which flagged a large number of franchise royal mail shop owners as stealing money. Even after RM became aware of the bug they continued to prosecute these franchise owners in civil and criminal court, and the courts believed RM as a big institution. Many owners were financially ruined with several suicides before they were vindicated) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

tinktank 3y ago

LOL. Surprised it took this long. The UK government really really has zero respect for its citizens. Seems to hate them with a passion.

ralferoo 3y ago

I don't have any figures to back this up, but I'd imagine that a significant chunk of shoplifters are teenagers, and given the 10 year lifetime of passports, their passport photos probably bear little resemblance to what they look like now. I'd also imagine that another significant chunk of shoplifters are people who are struggling to get by financially, and if they're struggling to pay for food, they're not likely to be jetting off abroad on holiday and so unlikely to have paid £82 for a passport they don't need.