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It’s an issue on its way out because unless you’re from a hyper local part of the same part of the country you can’t even tell what caste someone is. If you let

It’s an issue on its way out because unless you’re from a hyper local part of the same part of the country you can’t even tell what caste someone is. If you let it lie as is the issue will not make it past the first generation immigrants let alone the second. If you codify it legally it’s going to drag on forever.

fortuealex 3y ago
I can't tell if this is the sixties and I'm reading some argument against the Civil Rights Act.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Why would it need to be the 60's? There's plenty of groups today who support weakening or repealing the Civil Rights Act, and those groups increasingly get the attention of elected officials at all levels. Having said that, it is very easy to discriminate against someone with a different skin color. But a different caste? I truly do not know how anyone who have any idea what caste a person belonged to, or comes from. But I am very curious.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    My understanding is that last names can be a clue, for those in the know.
- huytersd 3y ago
  You can’t just forget racism because the superficial differences are too stark. The caste system is akin to Europeans forgetting who was a serf and who was nobility. Something that can be left in the past. Do you want to have laws that prevent discrimination against former European serfs?
  - extasia 3y ago
    I think it's way worst than that. The caste system has deep spiritual roots in Hinduism that are over 2000 years old. Certain upper (high Brahmin, presumably) castes would literally have to perform purifying rituals if they even laid eyes on someone from one of the lowest(?) castes. No such parallel exists in Europe afaik. Source: the origins of political order, F. Fukuyama
    - huytersd 3y ago
      And serfs were tied to and sold with the land for hundreds of years. They were essentially slaves. What difference do the origins make, all that matters is if you have a generation that can’t tell the difference it all dies.
      - extasia 3y ago
        I think the spiritual element is way more degrading, and indicates a much higher degree of prejudice.
        huytersd 3y ago
        That may or may not be true but this defensive comment has no bearing on the current discussion about outcomes.
viraptor 3y ago
> If you let it lie as is the issue will not make it past the first generation immigrants let alone the second. So 25-50 years? That doesn't sound great for people affected today. > If you codify it legally it’s going to drag on forever. Why do you think codifying a ban would make the banned thing last longer? (Given you say it's naturally dying anyway)
- huytersd 3y ago
  No, like 20 years and only in the very small percentage of people where you have people from the same part of India working with each other, they decide to carry over caste politics from India and take the step to bring it into their professional lives. This is a very small number of people. Codifying it just makes it so people are required to remember their labels for the benefits that come from identifying as a victimized community and pass those labels on to their kids. It’s fucking terrible.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    > it just makes it so people are required to remember their labels Why do you think you need to know your label? If someone thinks you're of a given caste and discriminates against you, that's still wrong, regardless if they got the label right. For example, someone shouted some things at me (wrongly) assuming I was Jewish. That's shitty regardless and would be illegal in some circumstances.
    - huytersd 3y ago
      I’ve answered this already. If there are benefits associated with a particular label (affirmative quota, social welfare benefits) then it incentivizes an individual to know their label.
      - viraptor 3y ago
        > affirmative quota, social welfare benefits None of those are included in the bill: https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB403/id/2840105 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB403/id/2840105 But they were not prevented from happening without the bill either.

fortuealex 3y ago

I can't tell if this is the sixties and I'm reading some argument against the Civil Rights Act.

standardUser 3y ago
Why would it need to be the 60's? There's plenty of groups today who support weakening or repealing the Civil Rights Act, and those groups increasingly get the attention of elected officials at all levels. Having said that, it is very easy to discriminate against someone with a different skin color. But a different caste? I truly do not know how anyone who have any idea what caste a person belonged to, or comes from. But I am very curious.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  My understanding is that last names can be a clue, for those in the know.
huytersd 3y ago
You can’t just forget racism because the superficial differences are too stark. The caste system is akin to Europeans forgetting who was a serf and who was nobility. Something that can be left in the past. Do you want to have laws that prevent discrimination against former European serfs?
- extasia 3y ago
  I think it's way worst than that. The caste system has deep spiritual roots in Hinduism that are over 2000 years old. Certain upper (high Brahmin, presumably) castes would literally have to perform purifying rituals if they even laid eyes on someone from one of the lowest(?) castes. No such parallel exists in Europe afaik. Source: the origins of political order, F. Fukuyama
  - huytersd 3y ago
    And serfs were tied to and sold with the land for hundreds of years. They were essentially slaves. What difference do the origins make, all that matters is if you have a generation that can’t tell the difference it all dies.
    - extasia 3y ago
      I think the spiritual element is way more degrading, and indicates a much higher degree of prejudice.
      - huytersd 3y ago
        That may or may not be true but this defensive comment has no bearing on the current discussion about outcomes.

viraptor 3y ago

> If you let it lie as is the issue will not make it past the first generation immigrants let alone the second. So 25-50 years? That doesn't sound great for people affected today. > If you codify it legally it’s going to drag on forever. Why do you think codifying a ban would make the banned thing last longer? (Given you say it's naturally dying anyway)

huytersd 3y ago
No, like 20 years and only in the very small percentage of people where you have people from the same part of India working with each other, they decide to carry over caste politics from India and take the step to bring it into their professional lives. This is a very small number of people. Codifying it just makes it so people are required to remember their labels for the benefits that come from identifying as a victimized community and pass those labels on to their kids. It’s fucking terrible.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > it just makes it so people are required to remember their labels Why do you think you need to know your label? If someone thinks you're of a given caste and discriminates against you, that's still wrong, regardless if they got the label right. For example, someone shouted some things at me (wrongly) assuming I was Jewish. That's shitty regardless and would be illegal in some circumstances.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    I’ve answered this already. If there are benefits associated with a particular label (affirmative quota, social welfare benefits) then it incentivizes an individual to know their label.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      > affirmative quota, social welfare benefits None of those are included in the bill: https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB403/id/2840105 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB403/id/2840105 But they were not prevented from happening without the bill either.