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> My parents couldn't afford anything… Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college

> My parents couldn't afford anything… Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college, and I went to a private 4 year engineering program starting in 1999 by taking out boat-loads of loans. Going into school I had nothing and needed 100% of my tuition covered by loans, grants, or scholarships. I was reasonably confident that having an engineering degree would allow me to pay back the loans (it did, but it didn't go as smoothly for all of my classmates). Based on my experience, I don't really understand the idea of not being able to afford college (at least for degrees which will put you in reasonably paying positions). Am I an outlier? I doubt it. I didn't go to a particularly well known school, but was able to figure out employment and self-sufficiency. Now I have the pride of finishing a relatively difficult program and paying for it through my own labor. Medical professionals, engineers, and the like have so many opportunities that it's not clear why we should subsidize their education. Educators, on the other hand, have to pay the same price for a degree, have to have continuing education, and then get paid crappy wages. While I'd rather reward them on the back end with better benefits, if there is a program worth subsidizing, it's probably educators.

biomcgary 3y ago
My college experience was similar and around the same time (but I tacked on a biology PhD and post-doc, which delayed earning considerably). My impression is that the cost of higher education has increased considerably over the past two decades relative to general inflation and expected income. Increased expense reduces lifetime ROI of education considerably and delays many milestones (e.g. purchase of first home).
- jonhohle 3y ago
  The same things were being said in the 90s: college is too expensive, only wealthy families can afford it or you'll need to get a full ride scholarship (that's what I was guilted with during HS). You're right though, about increased tuition, and it's easy loans that cannot be discharged that are one of the major culprits, but living on campus at a public university costs as much as my private tuition plus room/board did 20 years ago. Inflation adjusted, it's 55% of what I paid and starting engineering salaries are 250% higher than when I graduated (it makes me a little sick to see what college hires make ;-) ). This isn't true for maybe 90% of the degrees a university offers. I would never suggest anyone take out a loan for a degree that wouldn't pay for itself with low risk. This includes degrees that are undervalued (teaching, for example).
kdmccormick 3y ago
I am close to people who have experiences similar to your (as recently as 2018). It's true that they are making it work, but it'll be another ten years before their debt is paid off. Furthermore, they all graduated on time, they are all in well-paid engineering disciplines, and they are all relatively free of other situations that cause large financial burden (heath crises, disasters, family drug issues, etc). For any of them, I'm not sure it'd be going smoothy if any of things had gone differently. Put another way: when everything goes right, you can just barely pay for private college yourself. As soon as anything goes awry, all bets are off.
- pohuing 3y ago
  You could means test repayment. That's how it's done here in Germany, only once I earn a good deal I'll have to pay back a small percentage each month. If I never get a steady income I just won't have to repay it if I understand it correctly.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    We already means-test repayment in the US, we just make the means-testing opt-in, and have loan servicers who have a financial incentive to steer people who would benefit away from the means-tested option.
    - semiquaver 3y ago
      Honest question: in what way are student loan servicers in the US financially incentivized to steer borrowers away from income based repayment plans? I think that the opposite is true. Servicers are paid a flat fee per outstanding loan, without regard to balance or monthly payment, _as long as payments are current_. Delinquent accounts are worth less. Being put on an IBR reduces your monthly payment, making it more likely it can remain in the state that is most profitable for the servicer. https://thecollegeinvestor.com/36556/how-much-do-federal-student-loan-servicers-make https://thecollegeinvestor.com/36556/how-much-do-federal-stu... From that perspective, the servicer is strongly incentivized to use IBR plans for accounts at risk, with no downside to them for erring on the side of lower payments. Furthermore, income based repayment plans aren’t a forgiveness of debt or reduction in interest rate. They simply reduce the monthly payment by extending the term as needed. In practice this can mean adding decades to the term, sometimes creating a situation where the principal grows every month. The longer the extension, the more fees paid to the servicer, since they make a flat monthly fee per loan. Again, one would think that the servicers would have every incentive to promote such a system.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Gud 3y ago
> starting in 1999 That was almost 25 years ago. A lot of things have changed since then, mostly for the worse. Being young today is intense. Massive student loans(unless your parents are wealthy), extremely expensive rents(unless your parents are wealthy), 10% inflation, etc, etc, etc. Why you should subsidize their education? Because it makes your civilization stronger. You want an educated citizenship for every possible reason there is.
- filoleg 3y ago
  > That was almost 25 years ago. A lot of things have changed since then, mostly for the worse. While I agree that the costs have been continuously ballooning and certain things got somewhat worse, their story isn’t just some “back in my day” tale. I graduated college 6 years ago with very similar circumstances to the ones described in that comment. Georgia Tech, public state school, in-state cost of tuition was around $5k/semester (without any financial aid), got HOPE/Zell Miller scholarship that essentially covers full tuition at any public state college if you maintain a gpa of 3.0. And with some hefty nice gpa bump modifiers for STEM classes that were introduced closer towards my graduation. E.g., so if you got a B (aka 3.0) in your intro to physics, it would count as 3.5 for the purpose of the scholarship eligibility. This wasn’t a school-specific policy, this was the state deciding that for all schools, and it expanded access to the scholarship for even more students. On top of that, I was fortunate enough to get an RA job after my first year for fall+spring semesters (while interning during off-season), which essentially provided free housing. And while this is not something everyone can do (as the number of RAs needed is limited), HOPE/Zell Miller scholarship covers absolutely everyone who qualifies. And many states have somewhat similar programs. Can’t speak for all, but one off the top of my head is Florida with their Bright Futures program with somewhat similar requirements covering tuition too. Thanks to this thread, I learned about the Louisiana one too.
PawgerZ 3y ago
How did you get the loans? Cosigners with decent credit were required when I looked into loans 5 years ago.

biomcgary 3y ago

My college experience was similar and around the same time (but I tacked on a biology PhD and post-doc, which delayed earning considerably). My impression is that the cost of higher education has increased considerably over the past two decades relative to general inflation and expected income. Increased expense reduces lifetime ROI of education considerably and delays many milestones (e.g. purchase of first home).

jonhohle 3y ago
The same things were being said in the 90s: college is too expensive, only wealthy families can afford it or you'll need to get a full ride scholarship (that's what I was guilted with during HS). You're right though, about increased tuition, and it's easy loans that cannot be discharged that are one of the major culprits, but living on campus at a public university costs as much as my private tuition plus room/board did 20 years ago. Inflation adjusted, it's 55% of what I paid and starting engineering salaries are 250% higher than when I graduated (it makes me a little sick to see what college hires make ;-) ). This isn't true for maybe 90% of the degrees a university offers. I would never suggest anyone take out a loan for a degree that wouldn't pay for itself with low risk. This includes degrees that are undervalued (teaching, for example).

kdmccormick 3y ago

I am close to people who have experiences similar to your (as recently as 2018). It's true that they are making it work, but it'll be another ten years before their debt is paid off. Furthermore, they all graduated on time, they are all in well-paid engineering disciplines, and they are all relatively free of other situations that cause large financial burden (heath crises, disasters, family drug issues, etc). For any of them, I'm not sure it'd be going smoothy if any of things had gone differently. Put another way: when everything goes right, you can just barely pay for private college yourself. As soon as anything goes awry, all bets are off.

pohuing 3y ago
You could means test repayment. That's how it's done here in Germany, only once I earn a good deal I'll have to pay back a small percentage each month. If I never get a steady income I just won't have to repay it if I understand it correctly.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  We already means-test repayment in the US, we just make the means-testing opt-in, and have loan servicers who have a financial incentive to steer people who would benefit away from the means-tested option.
  - semiquaver 3y ago
    Honest question: in what way are student loan servicers in the US financially incentivized to steer borrowers away from income based repayment plans? I think that the opposite is true. Servicers are paid a flat fee per outstanding loan, without regard to balance or monthly payment, _as long as payments are current_. Delinquent accounts are worth less. Being put on an IBR reduces your monthly payment, making it more likely it can remain in the state that is most profitable for the servicer. https://thecollegeinvestor.com/36556/how-much-do-federal-student-loan-servicers-make https://thecollegeinvestor.com/36556/how-much-do-federal-stu... From that perspective, the servicer is strongly incentivized to use IBR plans for accounts at risk, with no downside to them for erring on the side of lower payments. Furthermore, income based repayment plans aren’t a forgiveness of debt or reduction in interest rate. They simply reduce the monthly payment by extending the term as needed. In practice this can mean adding decades to the term, sometimes creating a situation where the principal grows every month. The longer the extension, the more fees paid to the servicer, since they make a flat monthly fee per loan. Again, one would think that the servicers would have every incentive to promote such a system.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Gud 3y ago

> starting in 1999 That was almost 25 years ago. A lot of things have changed since then, mostly for the worse. Being young today is intense. Massive student loans(unless your parents are wealthy), extremely expensive rents(unless your parents are wealthy), 10% inflation, etc, etc, etc. Why you should subsidize their education? Because it makes your civilization stronger. You want an educated citizenship for every possible reason there is.

filoleg 3y ago
> That was almost 25 years ago. A lot of things have changed since then, mostly for the worse. While I agree that the costs have been continuously ballooning and certain things got somewhat worse, their story isn’t just some “back in my day” tale. I graduated college 6 years ago with very similar circumstances to the ones described in that comment. Georgia Tech, public state school, in-state cost of tuition was around $5k/semester (without any financial aid), got HOPE/Zell Miller scholarship that essentially covers full tuition at any public state college if you maintain a gpa of 3.0. And with some hefty nice gpa bump modifiers for STEM classes that were introduced closer towards my graduation. E.g., so if you got a B (aka 3.0) in your intro to physics, it would count as 3.5 for the purpose of the scholarship eligibility. This wasn’t a school-specific policy, this was the state deciding that for all schools, and it expanded access to the scholarship for even more students. On top of that, I was fortunate enough to get an RA job after my first year for fall+spring semesters (while interning during off-season), which essentially provided free housing. And while this is not something everyone can do (as the number of RAs needed is limited), HOPE/Zell Miller scholarship covers absolutely everyone who qualifies. And many states have somewhat similar programs. Can’t speak for all, but one off the top of my head is Florida with their Bright Futures program with somewhat similar requirements covering tuition too. Thanks to this thread, I learned about the Louisiana one too.

PawgerZ 3y ago

How did you get the loans? Cosigners with decent credit were required when I looked into loans 5 years ago.