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I have a problem with taxes in general, and this is yet another stupid idea. Increased tax loads always get passed on to the consumer. What we will end up with

by AmVess 3y ago

I have a problem with taxes in general, and this is yet another stupid idea. Increased tax loads always get passed on to the consumer. What we will end up with is higher cost of doing business and 100% for certain federally run universities will still need taxpayer bailouts every single year. Lose lose all the way around. I have an even better idea: get rid of all freebies. If someone wants something, they can get off their asses and work for it for a change.

flashback2199 3y ago
> Increased tax loads always get passed on to the consumer Yep, taxes are a little bit worse than that too because the cost also gets passed to the producer as well in the form of decreased demand. The result is fewer goods and services exchanged - ie less economic activity - than there would have been with a lower tax. Formally, it is called deadweight loss in microecon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss?wprov=sfla1
- segfaltnh 3y ago
  Is there an example of negative repercussions of this in modern society? I hear people complain about extreme taxation relative to history, but I also have plenty of access to goods and services in my region, so it seems there must be other, perhaps higher weighted, factors?
  - flashback2199 3y ago
    I learned about it in intro microecon in college. My understanding is that it is part of standard microecon curriculum.
mseidl 3y ago
In the 50s/60s/70s at minimum wage you used to be able to pay for a whole school year with 109 hours. Now, at minimum wage, just for 1 year is around 2250 hours. That's 13 months just to pay off 1 year of school, not including any living costs.
- dinkleberg 3y ago
  That is remarkably depressing to see.
  - econonut 3y ago
    It's also wrong. His numbers are exaggerated and provided without any source. In 1970, it was closer to 250 hours of minimum wage for tuition alone (no living expenses) as minimum wage was $1.60 and the cost of tuition for a public university (near me) was $420 for 30 credit hours. Today, that same university is $6,270 for 30 credit hours of tuition, which is around 520 hours of work at $12/hour (which is $1.60 expressed in nominal 2023 dollars and is also the minimum wage in the state). While I realize that's still a little more than 2x the amount of working hours, it's definitely not as depressing as 20x the amount of working hours as the poster stated.
    - segfaltnh 3y ago
      What if you include living expenses?
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  That’s a result of govt guaranteed student loans inflating tuition. Those need to be stopped first. Then we can have cheap public universities that cost only what is required. Shouldn’t be free as it is costly and won’t be appreciated. But definitely competitive to drive down prices.
em-bee 3y ago
nothwithstanding all the things that taxes get used for, education is the last thing that you want to force people to pay for by themselves, because the result will be that much less people will send their kids to school because they can't afford it, and so you will end up with a large portion of uneducated and unemployable people. you really do not want to live in a country where that is the case. only education can lead to prosperity of the whole population. and the more educated people you have, the better off everyone is. i am gladly paying taxes for education, because i know in the future i and my kids will benefit from everyone around us being smarter.
- jamesblonde 3y ago
  But would they vote for you if they were educated? Then they might understand that they are voting against their economic self-interest...
  - em-bee 3y ago
    well, if i am the one pushing for free education then i hope that those who did receive free education will recognize the benefit they received from that education and continue to vote for me, or for anyone else pushing in the same direction
gopher_space 3y ago
From my perspective education isn't a "freebie", it's an investment in our nation's future. Change is coming at us really fast and we need a bunch of sharp kids out there looking at all the angles. It's the same situation with school lunches. We need a bright, healthy population to face challenges. You might look at this from a national security angle. Did you know that the largest category of recruit disqualification in both WWI and WWII was malnourishment? Did you know that our technological 'edge' comes out of public universities? We don't want a small pool of healthy Americans to call on, we want the Roman ideal of a sound mind in a sound body for every citizen.
oh_sigh 3y ago
Who is the consumer in the context of a tax on financial transactions?
JetSpiegel 3y ago
What's the "consumer" of HFT trading firms? Those would be the ones affected by it.

by AmVess 3y ago

flashback2199 3y ago

> Increased tax loads always get passed on to the consumer Yep, taxes are a little bit worse than that too because the cost also gets passed to the producer as well in the form of decreased demand. The result is fewer goods and services exchanged - ie less economic activity - than there would have been with a lower tax. Formally, it is called deadweight loss in microecon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss?wprov=sfla1

segfaltnh 3y ago
Is there an example of negative repercussions of this in modern society? I hear people complain about extreme taxation relative to history, but I also have plenty of access to goods and services in my region, so it seems there must be other, perhaps higher weighted, factors?
- flashback2199 3y ago
  I learned about it in intro microecon in college. My understanding is that it is part of standard microecon curriculum.

mseidl 3y ago

In the 50s/60s/70s at minimum wage you used to be able to pay for a whole school year with 109 hours. Now, at minimum wage, just for 1 year is around 2250 hours. That's 13 months just to pay off 1 year of school, not including any living costs.

dinkleberg 3y ago
That is remarkably depressing to see.
- econonut 3y ago
  It's also wrong. His numbers are exaggerated and provided without any source. In 1970, it was closer to 250 hours of minimum wage for tuition alone (no living expenses) as minimum wage was $1.60 and the cost of tuition for a public university (near me) was $420 for 30 credit hours. Today, that same university is $6,270 for 30 credit hours of tuition, which is around 520 hours of work at $12/hour (which is $1.60 expressed in nominal 2023 dollars and is also the minimum wage in the state). While I realize that's still a little more than 2x the amount of working hours, it's definitely not as depressing as 20x the amount of working hours as the poster stated.
  - segfaltnh 3y ago
    What if you include living expenses?
mixmastamyk 3y ago
That’s a result of govt guaranteed student loans inflating tuition. Those need to be stopped first. Then we can have cheap public universities that cost only what is required. Shouldn’t be free as it is costly and won’t be appreciated. But definitely competitive to drive down prices.

em-bee 3y ago

nothwithstanding all the things that taxes get used for, education is the last thing that you want to force people to pay for by themselves, because the result will be that much less people will send their kids to school because they can't afford it, and so you will end up with a large portion of uneducated and unemployable people. you really do not want to live in a country where that is the case. only education can lead to prosperity of the whole population. and the more educated people you have, the better off everyone is. i am gladly paying taxes for education, because i know in the future i and my kids will benefit from everyone around us being smarter.

jamesblonde 3y ago
But would they vote for you if they were educated? Then they might understand that they are voting against their economic self-interest...
- em-bee 3y ago
  well, if i am the one pushing for free education then i hope that those who did receive free education will recognize the benefit they received from that education and continue to vote for me, or for anyone else pushing in the same direction

gopher_space 3y ago

From my perspective education isn't a "freebie", it's an investment in our nation's future. Change is coming at us really fast and we need a bunch of sharp kids out there looking at all the angles. It's the same situation with school lunches. We need a bright, healthy population to face challenges. You might look at this from a national security angle. Did you know that the largest category of recruit disqualification in both WWI and WWII was malnourishment? Did you know that our technological 'edge' comes out of public universities? We don't want a small pool of healthy Americans to call on, we want the Roman ideal of a sound mind in a sound body for every citizen.

oh_sigh 3y ago

Who is the consumer in the context of a tax on financial transactions?

JetSpiegel 3y ago

What's the "consumer" of HFT trading firms? Those would be the ones affected by it.