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Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you insta

Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you instantly get access to healthcare, food stamps, and free housing” then your maximum payout is the entire planet and you are bankrupt once people realize this. For public college to be free, I want to limit access, like happens in Europe. Sure college can be free… to the top N people in the state, with N being decided by the payers (i.e. democratic electorate). Otherwise it’s just wasted money as we delay adulthood for a huge number of people who have no business getting degrees.

omginternets 3y ago
It's telling that people aren't willing to contend with the corollary of "free education" and "free healthcare": limited capacity. Edit: I should probably mention that I'm generally in favor of state-funded education, for a variety of reasons.
- owenmarshall 3y ago
  Healthcare capacity in the US is a function of your ability to pay for it. We contend with limited supply today, we just kick the limited supply to groups of people who by and large aren't posting on this website.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    Yes... I agree. I'm not sure what your point is?
    - owenmarshall 3y ago
      When I've heard this argument advanced before, it's had the subtext that "limited capacity is not a problem today but becomes one in other contexts" I made the assumption that's what you were hinting at.
      - omginternets 3y ago
        Ah, I see. No, my point is rather that countries with public education/healthcare/etc have historically restricted access to these services in some reasonable way. For instance, you can only pursue one degree on the state's dime in France. Or, you can't access public healthcare if you are not a legal immigrant. Things like that.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  Why does it work in other countries? I know we have a larger population, but surely that applies just as much to our ability to scale up supply as it does to the inherent increase in demand? The United States is uniquely bad at covering the costs of health care and education, compared to its economic peers. Why is that?
  - omginternets 3y ago
    >Why does it work in other countries? Of course it works in other countries; public education, like public healthcare, is an extremely good idea. This having been said, there are currently heated debates in most of Western Europe about the economic feasibility of educating every citizen to a post-secondary level, let alone every immigrant. Moreover, in France (the European country I know best), you are generally permitted to obtain one state-funded degree, and not two. The point here is simply that a discussion of publicly-funded higher education has to be accompanied by some discussion of limitations.
  - elteto 3y ago
    We definitely need a complete overhaul of the US health system, but we don't just "have a larger population". The largest countries in Europe by population (after Russia) are Turkey and Germany with with 85M and 84M, respectively. The US has 331M. That is almost ~4x! When we say it works in other countries, most of the time we are referring to Europe. And most countries in Europe are tiny in comparison. The US is the 3rd largest country by population. This is not to say that the US problems are unsolvable, but they will definitely require unique solutions.
    - BobaFloutist 3y ago
      Sure, I agree that they will require unique solutions, but the general trend of economies of scale providing efficiency benefits suggests to me that the biggest problems are political rather than logistical.
- djur 3y ago
  Public universities in the US do have admission requirements and yearly admission limits. I'm not sure where this idea that they don't comes from.
lusus_naturae 3y ago
> to the top N people in the state, with N being decided by the payers (i.e. democratic electorate). I don't know how it works in the EU, but one issue I see with that it has the danger of permanently locking people who grow up with worse early/middle/high school education into their socioeconomic status, i.e. it would prevent social mobility for those with less resources. Unless public schooling standards prior to college are also improved, limiting higher education to "top N%" students ensures entrenched socioeconomic inequity. I think there is already enough class-based discontent, and making it worse via limiting (one of the few) means of social mobility wouldn't help, I think.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  In many (most?) EU contries, kids are evaluated and steered into vocational/trades or college-bound tracks at about middle-school age. College/university education may be free or close to it, but not everyone can go. EU approaches to education are more likely to lock you into your socieoeconmic status than those in the USA, where if you are smart but poor you will have schools falling over themselves to recruit you so their enrollment stats for "underserved" students look better.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    are you sure? how many poor people in the US do actually get into college? i doubt that the number of poor european students that fail to qualify for college is higher than the number of poor students in the US that fail to qualify there. but i don't think we can find a good answer without looking at statistics.
- toast0 3y ago
  You could do top N% (round up) of each high school in the state as a first approximation and capture a lot of socioeconomic diversity, since there's (at least currently) a lot of clustering of poor kids at some schools rich kids at others. You've also got to have a second option. If you don't qualify for the state school scholarship based on high school grades or maybe alternate qualifiers like test scores, then community college is still an option, and when you graduate from that with an approved program, it should qualify you for state school. Maybe something something GI bill, although dangling college as a hook to get people into the military feels icky to me somehow.
MarkMarine 3y ago
Honest question, do you have a college degree, and do you think the majority of the population being generally educated is actually a bad thing? I can understand the reaction to the cost, and many people work outside of the degree they majored in, but I do value the general education of the population. It’s been a remarkably uplifting force in society, if you look back over history. I also wonder what that means for the competition between nations, it seems like the countries that I think are doing well really lean in to general education of their populations. I came to college a different way, I went into the Marines first and only attended college after that. I didn’t live in the dorm and didn’t have a traditional college experience, but I am glad every day that I didn’t just have engineering classes.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  We are talking about taking something that individuals pay for, that costs about $40k in total at affordable schools, and making it totally free for as many people who want it. If additional people want to pay beyond the cap, wonderful. But I don’t see how the financials make any sense otherwise.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - eatsyourtacos 3y ago
    I'm just going to default to the: how do you think other countries do it? I'm really tired of being told "we can't afford to give healthcare" "we can't afford to give higher education" "we can't afford early childcare" "we can't afford maturity leave" "we can't afford guaranteed sick/vacation" Of course we can. The powers at be don't want that because it levels the playing field, costs them some money, and ultimately makes them less powerful.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      A number of other countries do it by separating students into different tracks bound for university, the trades, or unskilled labor, respectively, already while they are schoolchildren. Public universities are free or nearly so, but the system ensures that only a portion of society is directed to them. Those who didn't get on the university track while still at school may be able to gain a public university education later as adults, but the process is complicated enough that many are discouraged, or in some countries they turn to private universities that are not free.
liotier 3y ago
> Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. [..] It’s like immigration The costs of immigration are not hidden, nor are its benefits. Financially speaking and from the point of view of the state, immigrant are net negative in the first couple of years - and then they are net positive for the rest of their lives. Immigration exists because market demand for workforce exists... I always find hilarious that it is the most free market advocates who tend to ignore that.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  I’m an open borders guy but the “sanctuary city” I live in seemed to never consider the costs of such sanctuary.
- RajT88 3y ago
  > I always find hilarious that it is the most free market advocates who tend to ignore that. A lot of free market advocates don't seem to understand how markets work. One of the main ways you grow an economy is to add people to it. You are adding jobs, by both creating labor supply and demand for goods and services. It's really very simple. The economy is made of people, stupid!
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    Require immigrants to be self-sustaining at some minimum amount. Have a job ready or otherwise prove the ability to pay for your housing (someone willing to board you). Otherwise, instantly applying government handouts to someone without any skills - language or otherwise - and often with kids and disabled relatives - makes the idea of unlimited open immigration a daunting cost.
    - vkou 3y ago
      Open immigration is obviously incompatible with a society that has open social benefits, but the United States currently has neither.
    - RajT88 3y ago

omginternets 3y ago

It's telling that people aren't willing to contend with the corollary of "free education" and "free healthcare": limited capacity. Edit: I should probably mention that I'm generally in favor of state-funded education, for a variety of reasons.

owenmarshall 3y ago
Healthcare capacity in the US is a function of your ability to pay for it. We contend with limited supply today, we just kick the limited supply to groups of people who by and large aren't posting on this website.
- omginternets 3y ago
  Yes... I agree. I'm not sure what your point is?
  - owenmarshall 3y ago
    When I've heard this argument advanced before, it's had the subtext that "limited capacity is not a problem today but becomes one in other contexts" I made the assumption that's what you were hinting at.
    - omginternets 3y ago
      Ah, I see. No, my point is rather that countries with public education/healthcare/etc have historically restricted access to these services in some reasonable way. For instance, you can only pursue one degree on the state's dime in France. Or, you can't access public healthcare if you are not a legal immigrant. Things like that.
BobaFloutist 3y ago
Why does it work in other countries? I know we have a larger population, but surely that applies just as much to our ability to scale up supply as it does to the inherent increase in demand? The United States is uniquely bad at covering the costs of health care and education, compared to its economic peers. Why is that?
- omginternets 3y ago
  >Why does it work in other countries? Of course it works in other countries; public education, like public healthcare, is an extremely good idea. This having been said, there are currently heated debates in most of Western Europe about the economic feasibility of educating every citizen to a post-secondary level, let alone every immigrant. Moreover, in France (the European country I know best), you are generally permitted to obtain one state-funded degree, and not two. The point here is simply that a discussion of publicly-funded higher education has to be accompanied by some discussion of limitations.
- elteto 3y ago
  We definitely need a complete overhaul of the US health system, but we don't just "have a larger population". The largest countries in Europe by population (after Russia) are Turkey and Germany with with 85M and 84M, respectively. The US has 331M. That is almost ~4x! When we say it works in other countries, most of the time we are referring to Europe. And most countries in Europe are tiny in comparison. The US is the 3rd largest country by population. This is not to say that the US problems are unsolvable, but they will definitely require unique solutions.
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    Sure, I agree that they will require unique solutions, but the general trend of economies of scale providing efficiency benefits suggests to me that the biggest problems are political rather than logistical.
djur 3y ago
Public universities in the US do have admission requirements and yearly admission limits. I'm not sure where this idea that they don't comes from.

lusus_naturae 3y ago

> to the top N people in the state, with N being decided by the payers (i.e. democratic electorate). I don't know how it works in the EU, but one issue I see with that it has the danger of permanently locking people who grow up with worse early/middle/high school education into their socioeconomic status, i.e. it would prevent social mobility for those with less resources. Unless public schooling standards prior to college are also improved, limiting higher education to "top N%" students ensures entrenched socioeconomic inequity. I think there is already enough class-based discontent, and making it worse via limiting (one of the few) means of social mobility wouldn't help, I think.

SoftTalker 3y ago
In many (most?) EU contries, kids are evaluated and steered into vocational/trades or college-bound tracks at about middle-school age. College/university education may be free or close to it, but not everyone can go. EU approaches to education are more likely to lock you into your socieoeconmic status than those in the USA, where if you are smart but poor you will have schools falling over themselves to recruit you so their enrollment stats for "underserved" students look better.
- em-bee 3y ago
  are you sure? how many poor people in the US do actually get into college? i doubt that the number of poor european students that fail to qualify for college is higher than the number of poor students in the US that fail to qualify there. but i don't think we can find a good answer without looking at statistics.
toast0 3y ago
You could do top N% (round up) of each high school in the state as a first approximation and capture a lot of socioeconomic diversity, since there's (at least currently) a lot of clustering of poor kids at some schools rich kids at others. You've also got to have a second option. If you don't qualify for the state school scholarship based on high school grades or maybe alternate qualifiers like test scores, then community college is still an option, and when you graduate from that with an approved program, it should qualify you for state school. Maybe something something GI bill, although dangling college as a hook to get people into the military feels icky to me somehow.

MarkMarine 3y ago

Honest question, do you have a college degree, and do you think the majority of the population being generally educated is actually a bad thing? I can understand the reaction to the cost, and many people work outside of the degree they majored in, but I do value the general education of the population. It’s been a remarkably uplifting force in society, if you look back over history. I also wonder what that means for the competition between nations, it seems like the countries that I think are doing well really lean in to general education of their populations. I came to college a different way, I went into the Marines first and only attended college after that. I didn’t live in the dorm and didn’t have a traditional college experience, but I am glad every day that I didn’t just have engineering classes.

monero-xmr 3y ago
We are talking about taking something that individuals pay for, that costs about $40k in total at affordable schools, and making it totally free for as many people who want it. If additional people want to pay beyond the cap, wonderful. But I don’t see how the financials make any sense otherwise.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- eatsyourtacos 3y ago
  I'm just going to default to the: how do you think other countries do it? I'm really tired of being told "we can't afford to give healthcare" "we can't afford to give higher education" "we can't afford early childcare" "we can't afford maturity leave" "we can't afford guaranteed sick/vacation" Of course we can. The powers at be don't want that because it levels the playing field, costs them some money, and ultimately makes them less powerful.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    A number of other countries do it by separating students into different tracks bound for university, the trades, or unskilled labor, respectively, already while they are schoolchildren. Public universities are free or nearly so, but the system ensures that only a portion of society is directed to them. Those who didn't get on the university track while still at school may be able to gain a public university education later as adults, but the process is complicated enough that many are discouraged, or in some countries they turn to private universities that are not free.

liotier 3y ago

> Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. [..] It’s like immigration The costs of immigration are not hidden, nor are its benefits. Financially speaking and from the point of view of the state, immigrant are net negative in the first couple of years - and then they are net positive for the rest of their lives. Immigration exists because market demand for workforce exists... I always find hilarious that it is the most free market advocates who tend to ignore that.

monero-xmr 3y ago
I’m an open borders guy but the “sanctuary city” I live in seemed to never consider the costs of such sanctuary.
RajT88 3y ago
> I always find hilarious that it is the most free market advocates who tend to ignore that. A lot of free market advocates don't seem to understand how markets work. One of the main ways you grow an economy is to add people to it. You are adding jobs, by both creating labor supply and demand for goods and services. It's really very simple. The economy is made of people, stupid!
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  Require immigrants to be self-sustaining at some minimum amount. Have a job ready or otherwise prove the ability to pay for your housing (someone willing to board you). Otherwise, instantly applying government handouts to someone without any skills - language or otherwise - and often with kids and disabled relatives - makes the idea of unlimited open immigration a daunting cost.
  - vkou 3y ago
    Open immigration is obviously incompatible with a society that has open social benefits, but the United States currently has neither.
  - RajT88 3y ago