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>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valuable than salary or position prestige. If you comply long term, you lose a part of your self and persona.

j-a-a-p 3y ago
Nice to read this confirmation! I like working in the office, but I also received the ultimatum of working in the office and decided to look elsewhere.
paulddraper 3y ago
That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."
- throwanem 3y ago
  Well, yes. Advice given to address one circumstance often does not apply in another, wholly different circumstance.
  - alex_lav 3y ago
    But...the advice is about ultimatums...
    - vorpalhex 3y ago
      Which the counter examples here are not.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > Never choose the one giving you an ultimatum
    - throwanem 3y ago
      One tiny fragment of a hologram, taken in isolation, still to some extent can represent the whole. An essay isn't a hologram, and whatever you're trying to accomplish by treating it as if it were continues to escape me.
- some_furry 3y ago
  It's only weird if you assume any choice or dichotomy is also an ultimatum. An ultimatum is a my way or the highway choice. "Submit or suffer". Negotiating how much time you invest into the relationship isn't an ultimatum. "Quit WoW entirely or I'm getting a divorce" is.
  - dm319 3y ago
    I'm looking through the responses, and this makes the most sense. The difference between saying that '12 hours is too much', depends on how it is said and what is open to negotiation to keep both sides happy. The thing is that 12 hours may be too much, but 4 hours, for example, might keep both sides happy. Also saying '12 hours is too much' is also an opening gambit that states what the issue is, and opens the door to how two people might come to an agreement. Ultimatums tend to come in the form of offering a binary choice, one of which is full acceptance of a proposal made by one person. Ultimatums don't come with a 'or we can negotiate something that works for us' addendum, they are usually all or nothing. While the first type of communication / boundary may well lead to a divorce if it can't be resolved, it isn't necessarily presented as an ultimatum.
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    There's definitely a gray-line there, not just about how unilateral it is (which is what you are saying), but also about norms and expectations. "Fill out this HR form or leave" is expected for the first day of work. Similarly "Not playing WoW for 12 hours a day" is probably expected in a committed adult relationship (unless of course this was a norm during courtship). RTO might well be a norm for people not hired remote. But forcing those hired as remote workers to relocate seems outside of the norms. It's the difference between "Do your job, or your fired" and "Switch to this different job, or your fired." [edit] I think there is a third leg to making something an ultimatum, and it's about the degree to which the move is (or is perceived to be) about imposing ones will on another. "I don't want to be married to someone who plays WoW for 12 hours a day," is a different tone from "Quit WoW, or I'm leaving you," and it's natural for someone to respond differently to those two statements.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > Negotiating how much time you invest into the relationship isn't an ultimatum It can be. Whether something is an ultimatum is determined by the consequence not the condition.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  It just reads like someone who hasn’t really had to compromise much in their lives.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Or someone who compromised too much in their lives. I think the bigger point is that corporations don't value "you" (royal "you") and these days are becoming a lot more blatant about it. Any ultimatim made by someone with power over you isn't a good one to take long term.
- travisjungroth 3y ago
  When you say it, it’s an ultimatum. When I say it, it’s a boundary.
- nkohari 3y ago
  This is unnecessarily pedantic. Of course there are exceptions.
- dangerlibrary 3y ago
  Your comment is confusing; the point you are trying to make is not coming through.
- madmads 3y ago
  I think it's assumed that it's within reason and in situations where the ultimatum has the purpose of pushing you into a situation you would prefer not to be in. The WoW example is an example of dysfunctional behavior and the HR example is a routine process and not unexpected from the recipient nor is the cost of filling it in extreme. Your examples don't apply and it should be obvious why.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    Absolutely. Hence "never choose the one giving you an ultimatum" is weird advice.
    - madmads 3y ago
      Maybe if you sprinkle the advice with your own bit of reasoning it becomes usable, you don't have to take it as literally as written on the page.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  Merriam Webster helpfully defines "ultimatum" as: > a final proposition, condition, or demand especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action
- ncallaway 3y ago
  I assume all sweeping advice I’m given also comes with a dose of Aristotle’s “golden mean”, or the Greek maxim “nothing in excess”. Yes, you can construct situations where the ultimatum is reasonable. Yes, you shouldn’t blindly apply this advise all the time without any consideration of the circumstances. But still, on balance it’s good advise. We all tend to lean too far towards respecting ultimatums from people in power (even when it’s harmful for us). We should collectively shift that balance, and move our default more towards being skeptical of someone giving an ultimatum. But, yes, when someone gives you advice that comes with a “never” or “always”, it’s usually worth assuming there’s a silent “almost” in there, unless they’re explicit that they mean no exceptions could apply.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  I just assumed they were a well-oiled ~~corporate~~ [strikethroughed] marital unit
bsima 3y ago
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
mrits 3y ago
A lot of people are in a position that they don't deserve. The max value is coming from the company that gave them the ultimatum. If you are quitting your job as coach of the New England Patriots during your losing season don't expect to get $20/million year at your next job after you did your worth searching.
samatman 3y ago
Relationships, be they personal, business, or otherwise, include dealbreakers. When a dealbreaker arises, there are two ways to handle it: unilaterally end the relation, or present it to the other party. The latter is an ultimatum, there's no way around that. Whether or not the ultimatum is reasonable depends entirely on the specifics, especially in the workplace, employers have expectations which they need to have met. It's especially distasteful to bake in the assumption that a romantic partner setting conditions to stay in a relationship is automatically being abusive. If someone is presented with an ultimatum to quit problem drinking or lose their partner, which is more likely: that the partner is abusive or that the other partner is an alcoholic? It's certainly not automatic that it's the former! A policy of never meeting an ultimatum is one way to live your life, I prefer to consider whether the demands are reasonable and proceed on that basis. For me it shows a stronger sense of self worth to consider this kind of thing on the merits, rather than pre-committing to stick to my guns, which is in effect a counter-ultimatum. Sometimes that's the right move, sometimes it isn't.
- throwawayq3423 3y ago
  I think you are both right. An ultimatum can be a demand for someone to stop destructive behavior, but it's more often a demand to fall in line, with the idea that you are replaceable if you don't. I think the latter is what OP referenced, if someone is telling you "it's my way or the highway" and they are OK with the highway option, you should listen. They are telling you exactly how much you are valued (or not), as well communicating that they feel they are in no uncertain terms above you.
- Blaiz0r 3y ago
  This is a refreshingly level headed response to read on the internet, I might quit while I'm ahead
- jzb 3y ago
  The sentence you quoted didn't say an ultimatum is abuse, it said to reject an ultimatum if from "an employer or abusive romantic partner" with "power" over you. As you say, an ultimatum isn't necessarily abusive. We all have things we want in life - and some of them are deal-breakers for a relationship. But if you read the sentence as written, I think it's solid advice - don't agree to something when someone is leveraging "power" over you if you can avoid it. That is abusive. People who've been in abusive relationships can read the difference between a "this is make-or-break for the life I want, you need to make a choice" and "I'm abusing this situation to make you agree to something you don't want to do / is bad for you."
willcipriano 3y ago
"Stop drinking or I'll take the kids to my mothers house and file for divorce" "I don't want to lose myself babe!"
colinsane 3y ago
unless you’re actually in that very rare category of “i can’t believe i get paid to do the thing i love” (all of the job — not just the fun parts), then how is taking any job not you accepting the ultimatum of “either i work for someone else, or my landlord kicks me to the curb”? author’s advice, if taken literally, is to homestead? not that i don’t get the appeal — i just don’t think very many are actually cut out for that.
MavropaliasG 3y ago
What about the ultimatum we were given 2 years ago on COVID vaccines from our employers?
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  If you felt that strongly against vaccines, sure. The same rule applies. You have a bad culture fit and need to find a place better fitting for you.
Throwawayh89 3y ago
Every moment in your life is an ultimatum because you can not do two things at once. So while I like the concept of this advice, its hard to execute in practice. I'd adjust it to "never choose the one who is unwilling to discuss and come to a compromise"

j-a-a-p 3y ago

Nice to read this confirmation! I like working in the office, but I also received the ultimatum of working in the office and decided to look elsewhere.

paulddraper 3y ago

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

throwanem 3y ago
Well, yes. Advice given to address one circumstance often does not apply in another, wholly different circumstance.
- alex_lav 3y ago
  But...the advice is about ultimatums...
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    Which the counter examples here are not.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > Never choose the one giving you an ultimatum
  - throwanem 3y ago
    One tiny fragment of a hologram, taken in isolation, still to some extent can represent the whole. An essay isn't a hologram, and whatever you're trying to accomplish by treating it as if it were continues to escape me.
some_furry 3y ago
It's only weird if you assume any choice or dichotomy is also an ultimatum. An ultimatum is a my way or the highway choice. "Submit or suffer". Negotiating how much time you invest into the relationship isn't an ultimatum. "Quit WoW entirely or I'm getting a divorce" is.
- dm319 3y ago
  I'm looking through the responses, and this makes the most sense. The difference between saying that '12 hours is too much', depends on how it is said and what is open to negotiation to keep both sides happy. The thing is that 12 hours may be too much, but 4 hours, for example, might keep both sides happy. Also saying '12 hours is too much' is also an opening gambit that states what the issue is, and opens the door to how two people might come to an agreement. Ultimatums tend to come in the form of offering a binary choice, one of which is full acceptance of a proposal made by one person. Ultimatums don't come with a 'or we can negotiate something that works for us' addendum, they are usually all or nothing. While the first type of communication / boundary may well lead to a divorce if it can't be resolved, it isn't necessarily presented as an ultimatum.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  There's definitely a gray-line there, not just about how unilateral it is (which is what you are saying), but also about norms and expectations. "Fill out this HR form or leave" is expected for the first day of work. Similarly "Not playing WoW for 12 hours a day" is probably expected in a committed adult relationship (unless of course this was a norm during courtship). RTO might well be a norm for people not hired remote. But forcing those hired as remote workers to relocate seems outside of the norms. It's the difference between "Do your job, or your fired" and "Switch to this different job, or your fired." [edit] I think there is a third leg to making something an ultimatum, and it's about the degree to which the move is (or is perceived to be) about imposing ones will on another. "I don't want to be married to someone who plays WoW for 12 hours a day," is a different tone from "Quit WoW, or I'm leaving you," and it's natural for someone to respond differently to those two statements.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > Negotiating how much time you invest into the relationship isn't an ultimatum It can be. Whether something is an ultimatum is determined by the consequence not the condition.
throwaway5959 3y ago
It just reads like someone who hasn’t really had to compromise much in their lives.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Or someone who compromised too much in their lives. I think the bigger point is that corporations don't value "you" (royal "you") and these days are becoming a lot more blatant about it. Any ultimatim made by someone with power over you isn't a good one to take long term.
travisjungroth 3y ago
When you say it, it’s an ultimatum. When I say it, it’s a boundary.
nkohari 3y ago
This is unnecessarily pedantic. Of course there are exceptions.
dangerlibrary 3y ago
Your comment is confusing; the point you are trying to make is not coming through.
madmads 3y ago
I think it's assumed that it's within reason and in situations where the ultimatum has the purpose of pushing you into a situation you would prefer not to be in. The WoW example is an example of dysfunctional behavior and the HR example is a routine process and not unexpected from the recipient nor is the cost of filling it in extreme. Your examples don't apply and it should be obvious why.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Absolutely. Hence "never choose the one giving you an ultimatum" is weird advice.
  - madmads 3y ago
    Maybe if you sprinkle the advice with your own bit of reasoning it becomes usable, you don't have to take it as literally as written on the page.
vorpalhex 3y ago
Merriam Webster helpfully defines "ultimatum" as: > a final proposition, condition, or demand especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action
ncallaway 3y ago
I assume all sweeping advice I’m given also comes with a dose of Aristotle’s “golden mean”, or the Greek maxim “nothing in excess”. Yes, you can construct situations where the ultimatum is reasonable. Yes, you shouldn’t blindly apply this advise all the time without any consideration of the circumstances. But still, on balance it’s good advise. We all tend to lean too far towards respecting ultimatums from people in power (even when it’s harmful for us). We should collectively shift that balance, and move our default more towards being skeptical of someone giving an ultimatum. But, yes, when someone gives you advice that comes with a “never” or “always”, it’s usually worth assuming there’s a silent “almost” in there, unless they’re explicit that they mean no exceptions could apply.
Obscurity4340 3y ago
I just assumed they were a well-oiled ~~corporate~~ [strikethroughed] marital unit

bsima 3y ago

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"

mrits 3y ago

A lot of people are in a position that they don't deserve. The max value is coming from the company that gave them the ultimatum. If you are quitting your job as coach of the New England Patriots during your losing season don't expect to get $20/million year at your next job after you did your worth searching.

samatman 3y ago

Relationships, be they personal, business, or otherwise, include dealbreakers. When a dealbreaker arises, there are two ways to handle it: unilaterally end the relation, or present it to the other party. The latter is an ultimatum, there's no way around that. Whether or not the ultimatum is reasonable depends entirely on the specifics, especially in the workplace, employers have expectations which they need to have met. It's especially distasteful to bake in the assumption that a romantic partner setting conditions to stay in a relationship is automatically being abusive. If someone is presented with an ultimatum to quit problem drinking or lose their partner, which is more likely: that the partner is abusive or that the other partner is an alcoholic? It's certainly not automatic that it's the former! A policy of never meeting an ultimatum is one way to live your life, I prefer to consider whether the demands are reasonable and proceed on that basis. For me it shows a stronger sense of self worth to consider this kind of thing on the merits, rather than pre-committing to stick to my guns, which is in effect a counter-ultimatum. Sometimes that's the right move, sometimes it isn't.

throwawayq3423 3y ago
I think you are both right. An ultimatum can be a demand for someone to stop destructive behavior, but it's more often a demand to fall in line, with the idea that you are replaceable if you don't. I think the latter is what OP referenced, if someone is telling you "it's my way or the highway" and they are OK with the highway option, you should listen. They are telling you exactly how much you are valued (or not), as well communicating that they feel they are in no uncertain terms above you.
Blaiz0r 3y ago
This is a refreshingly level headed response to read on the internet, I might quit while I'm ahead
jzb 3y ago
The sentence you quoted didn't say an ultimatum is abuse, it said to reject an ultimatum if from "an employer or abusive romantic partner" with "power" over you. As you say, an ultimatum isn't necessarily abusive. We all have things we want in life - and some of them are deal-breakers for a relationship. But if you read the sentence as written, I think it's solid advice - don't agree to something when someone is leveraging "power" over you if you can avoid it. That is abusive. People who've been in abusive relationships can read the difference between a "this is make-or-break for the life I want, you need to make a choice" and "I'm abusing this situation to make you agree to something you don't want to do / is bad for you."

willcipriano 3y ago

"Stop drinking or I'll take the kids to my mothers house and file for divorce" "I don't want to lose myself babe!"

colinsane 3y ago

unless you’re actually in that very rare category of “i can’t believe i get paid to do the thing i love” (all of the job — not just the fun parts), then how is taking any job not you accepting the ultimatum of “either i work for someone else, or my landlord kicks me to the curb”? author’s advice, if taken literally, is to homestead? not that i don’t get the appeal — i just don’t think very many are actually cut out for that.

MavropaliasG 3y ago

What about the ultimatum we were given 2 years ago on COVID vaccines from our employers?

johnnyanmac 3y ago
If you felt that strongly against vaccines, sure. The same rule applies. You have a bad culture fit and need to find a place better fitting for you.

Throwawayh89 3y ago

Every moment in your life is an ultimatum because you can not do two things at once. So while I like the concept of this advice, its hard to execute in practice. I'd adjust it to "never choose the one who is unwilling to discuss and come to a compromise"