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This post both says "I was most important at the company" And "I was easily dismissed". Can a CEO really be that disconnected from their company?

hef19898 3y ago
Not the CEO, because everybody is replaceable. Heck, even Steve Jobs was.
- kleiba 3y ago
  > Heck, even Steve Jobs was. Replaceable or replaced, which one are you referring to?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Both.
- zamalek 3y ago
  > everybody is replaceable Usually at a higher cost: 1. Employees seek new employment in order to increase their compensation, usually for the same amount+type of work. The replacement will likely be negotiating higher than what the original employee achieved through regular promotions and pay raises. 2. Software - and many other cognitive industries - are not like an assembly line (another CEO fallacy). You can't just slot in a replacement and expect things to continue as normal. Deliverables will suffer, either through quality or expediency. You might also find it difficult to find a replacement that is as talented as the employee you lost. Someone calling your ultimatum means that they are confident in their ability to get re-hired (or in this case didn't struggle to get re-hired while they towed the line). Oops, you just lost rare talent.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Two observations: Talent is one of the most overrated things I onow, and it nothing without preserverance and discipline. And being to function in a specific team. I say specific, because one teams toxic idiot can be another teams rockstar. Assembly lines require much more skill and discipline than you may realize.
some_furry 3y ago
Large company + Dunbar's number, but in this case the leadership didn't even listen to their immediate subordinates.
yellow_lead 3y ago
Spend some time listening to the CEOs where you work and you will find the answer. CEOs are normally very out of touch. I also don't think the author implied they were most important, but that they were a good contributor and respected by many.
- some_furry 3y ago
  Correct: I wasn't like a vice president or anything crazy. (But I did hear from VPs on my way out who are leaving soon too.) I normally downplay myself in my writing, so this was me pushing myself out of my comfort zone a bit. I hope it didn't come across as arrogant.
iandanforth 3y ago
I don't see the part where they were 'easily dismissed'. They mention other engineers who say 'no, fire me if you don't like it', but the described behavior here was to say "sure" and then find another job.
Contusion3532 3y ago
I think so. It's my belief that they often times leadership sees software engineers as cogs that can easily be replaced by another. They don't appreciate the years of institutional knowledge that experienced engineers have, vast productivity differences between workers, etc.
- ballenf 3y ago
  If certain members become known as being super important or valuable, management's response will more often be "fix this risk" not "great, let's reward that person". In the short term it will bring that person some degree of job security, but in the long term they are viewed as a threat to the org. It's the assembly line mindset -- if there's only one person who can operate the machine or build a part, remove the part.
  - DrScientist 3y ago
    Yep. Though there is a difference between indispensable because of key knowledge acquisition & hoarding, and valuable because of the contribution. If you are the former - yep you are creating a risk, if you are the latter then not in my view. Remote working potentially increases the chances of knowledge hoarding - as there are less opportunities to mentor more junior colleagues.
- BadCookie 3y ago
  Yeah. The other day, I asked a clarifying question that led to a long email chain among non-technical employees. Of course, the various VPs refer to each other by name, but when the resulting email chain got forwarded to me, I see that I was referred to merely as "the dev." It really hammered home for me that these people will never see me as their equal. I am just a nameless, fungible "resource" despite my decade+ of experience.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    As an aside, unless you have a specific reason not to, refer to others in those situations in the way they refer to each other. If you’re chatting with Jane and Bob, and they’re calling each other Jane and Bob, so should you. Your default attitude should be that you’re their peer, even if you’re working in different fields. They’re good at managing organizations. You’re good at technical stuff. You’re all there to work together to get stuff done. Get them used to calling you by name as an equal, not as “the dev”.
jihadjihad 3y ago
The post doesn't say they were "easily dismissed" -- it says they were presented with an ultimatum (RTO & relocate), so they bought some time then landed work elsewhere: > If your employer tells you, “Move to an expensive city or resign,” your best move will be, in the end, to quit. Notice that I said, in the end. It’s perfectly okay to pretend to comply to buy time while you line up a new gig somewhere else.
moomin 3y ago
At most firms that employ > 20 people, there are _plenty_ of people who make powerful, serious contributions to their firm and the CEO will never know who they are.
wholesomepotato 3y ago
Top corporate leadership nowadays is paid ridiculous money while 90% of the time being out of touch clowns. It's just a clique riding on easy money and general societal incompetence period, circle of connections self-justifying their salaries. Notably: lots of exceptions, usually ones that built the company themselves or worked there for decades.

hef19898 3y ago

Not the CEO, because everybody is replaceable. Heck, even Steve Jobs was.

kleiba 3y ago
> Heck, even Steve Jobs was. Replaceable or replaced, which one are you referring to?
- hef19898 3y ago
  Both.
zamalek 3y ago
> everybody is replaceable Usually at a higher cost: 1. Employees seek new employment in order to increase their compensation, usually for the same amount+type of work. The replacement will likely be negotiating higher than what the original employee achieved through regular promotions and pay raises. 2. Software - and many other cognitive industries - are not like an assembly line (another CEO fallacy). You can't just slot in a replacement and expect things to continue as normal. Deliverables will suffer, either through quality or expediency. You might also find it difficult to find a replacement that is as talented as the employee you lost. Someone calling your ultimatum means that they are confident in their ability to get re-hired (or in this case didn't struggle to get re-hired while they towed the line). Oops, you just lost rare talent.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Two observations: Talent is one of the most overrated things I onow, and it nothing without preserverance and discipline. And being to function in a specific team. I say specific, because one teams toxic idiot can be another teams rockstar. Assembly lines require much more skill and discipline than you may realize.

some_furry 3y ago

Large company + Dunbar's number, but in this case the leadership didn't even listen to their immediate subordinates.

yellow_lead 3y ago

Spend some time listening to the CEOs where you work and you will find the answer. CEOs are normally very out of touch. I also don't think the author implied they were most important, but that they were a good contributor and respected by many.

some_furry 3y ago
Correct: I wasn't like a vice president or anything crazy. (But I did hear from VPs on my way out who are leaving soon too.) I normally downplay myself in my writing, so this was me pushing myself out of my comfort zone a bit. I hope it didn't come across as arrogant.

iandanforth 3y ago

I don't see the part where they were 'easily dismissed'. They mention other engineers who say 'no, fire me if you don't like it', but the described behavior here was to say "sure" and then find another job.

Contusion3532 3y ago

I think so. It's my belief that they often times leadership sees software engineers as cogs that can easily be replaced by another. They don't appreciate the years of institutional knowledge that experienced engineers have, vast productivity differences between workers, etc.

ballenf 3y ago
If certain members become known as being super important or valuable, management's response will more often be "fix this risk" not "great, let's reward that person". In the short term it will bring that person some degree of job security, but in the long term they are viewed as a threat to the org. It's the assembly line mindset -- if there's only one person who can operate the machine or build a part, remove the part.
- DrScientist 3y ago
  Yep. Though there is a difference between indispensable because of key knowledge acquisition & hoarding, and valuable because of the contribution. If you are the former - yep you are creating a risk, if you are the latter then not in my view. Remote working potentially increases the chances of knowledge hoarding - as there are less opportunities to mentor more junior colleagues.
BadCookie 3y ago
Yeah. The other day, I asked a clarifying question that led to a long email chain among non-technical employees. Of course, the various VPs refer to each other by name, but when the resulting email chain got forwarded to me, I see that I was referred to merely as "the dev." It really hammered home for me that these people will never see me as their equal. I am just a nameless, fungible "resource" despite my decade+ of experience.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  As an aside, unless you have a specific reason not to, refer to others in those situations in the way they refer to each other. If you’re chatting with Jane and Bob, and they’re calling each other Jane and Bob, so should you. Your default attitude should be that you’re their peer, even if you’re working in different fields. They’re good at managing organizations. You’re good at technical stuff. You’re all there to work together to get stuff done. Get them used to calling you by name as an equal, not as “the dev”.

jihadjihad 3y ago

The post doesn't say they were "easily dismissed" -- it says they were presented with an ultimatum (RTO & relocate), so they bought some time then landed work elsewhere: > If your employer tells you, “Move to an expensive city or resign,” your best move will be, in the end, to quit. Notice that I said, in the end. It’s perfectly okay to pretend to comply to buy time while you line up a new gig somewhere else.

moomin 3y ago

At most firms that employ > 20 people, there are _plenty_ of people who make powerful, serious contributions to their firm and the CEO will never know who they are.

wholesomepotato 3y ago

Top corporate leadership nowadays is paid ridiculous money while 90% of the time being out of touch clowns. It's just a clique riding on easy money and general societal incompetence period, circle of connections self-justifying their salaries. Notably: lots of exceptions, usually ones that built the company themselves or worked there for decades.