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Walter Issacson (the author who originally broke the news on this story) later clarified that he was mistaken on the timeline. Calling someone a fascist is a pr

Walter Issacson (the author who originally broke the news on this story) later clarified that he was mistaken on the timeline. Calling someone a fascist is a pretty wild accusation, especially when it seems it was motivated by a misunderstanding. "Hi, Tim. Based on my conversations with Musk, I mistakenly thought the policy to not allow Starlink to be used for an attack on Crimea had been first decided on the night of the Ukrainian attempted sneak attack that night. He now says that the policy had been implemented earlier, but the Ukrainians did not know it, and that night he simply reaffirmed the policy." [1] [1] twitter.com/WalterIsaacson/status/1700522506363248665

sofixa 3y ago
So he actively sabotaged an Ukrainian attack against the Russian navy, just as I initially stated? His excuse is bullshit too > If I had agreed to their request, then SpaceX would be explicitly complicit in a major act of war and conflict escalation Refusing to help the defender is siding with the offender by allowing them to continue their senseless war of agression and genocide. > Calling someone a fascist is a pretty wild accusation, especially when it seems it was motivated by a misunderstanding. And he isn't flirting with fascism just because he helps Russia or mocks Zelensky having to beg for help from other countries to ensure the survival of his own, but for a whole host of other reasons. Just take a scroll through his Twitter timeline and see him getting scolded by the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs on migrants' lives, or him commenting, liking, retweeting memes full of racist or otherwise fascist-adjacent dogwhistles. PS: https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/1/23895069/walter-isaacson-biography-musk-review https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/1/23895069/walter-isaacson-... I'm even less inclined to agree with Isaacson's statements now
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  I don't understand how people can exist in such a clear dissonance state (Elon provides Starklink to Ukraine as a means to help Russsia, and does not offer it to Russia), and not step back and think. Like its so clear that your constructed narrative is wrong, but you are so blinded by emotion that you are totally unable to see it. Even worse, you won't even be able to read this comment without assigning it as musk propaganda written by some drooling fan boy. Seriously, the anti-musk people managed to become just as detached as the musk worshippers. If you want to be critical, get a grip, otherwise its easy for musk to hold up his detractors as idiots.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Why are you decided on making things binary? Either you're anti-musk or musk worshipper, or either musk is full on helping Ukraine or full on helping Russia. Things can, and often are far more nuanced. Like for instance, one can easily say that the Soviet Union was crucial in the war against Germany in WW2, while also being brutal genociding maniacs that committed human rights atrocities everywhere they went. > I don't understand how people can exist in such a clear dissonance state (Elon provides Starklink to Ukraine as a means to help Russsia, and does not offer it to Russia), and not step back and think. What musk did with Starlink regarding the Ukrainian planned attack was direct and active sabotage of an operation, and impeded the Ukrainian war effort. Other things he has done previously, like allowing Starlink access in Ukraine, has helped the war effort. Is that hard to comprehend? Does it have to be one or the other? The fact that he has done some good deeds, for whatever reason, doesn't change the fact that he has done far more bad deeds. His sabotage of public transit initiatives with actively harmful efforts such as the loop and hyperloop has a direct impact. His constant lies and embellishments of technological advancements is also harmful to his customers. His sharing and endorsing fascist and Russian propaganda is also harmful to the Ukrainian war effot.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > If you want to be critical, get a grip, otherwise its easy for musk to hold up his detractors as idiots. much in the same way it is easy for a clown to dangle a shiny object in front of small children, and receive cheers and applause from a similarly small minority of people, and similarly be ignored by most other people, who recognize that the clown is a clown.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  Refusing to help Ukraine in that case was complying with US policy of not providing guided weapons with that range. But alas, it's clear you aren't actually interested in hearing the truth.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    So satellite internet is a guided weapon?
    - inemesitaffia 3y ago
      It's a weapons component in this case. I'll remind you everyone exporting night vision equipment to Ukraine is violating export control laws..enforced or not
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Ukraine obviously didn't have control over territory in Crimea, so any use for Starlink there would be about using it as a remote control system for a weapon, which does make it a key component of a weapon guidance system and thus something that the US did not want operating all the way through Crimea at the time. This has only recently changed with the US agreeing to supply ATACMS. It's kind of funny on many levels that when Musk or his businesses go against the US government or don't stick perfectly to its interests, your types rush out of the woodworks screeching about how the company needs to be seized and forced into compliance. But when they carefully follow the government's position, your types rush out to argue that the company and its CEO specifically are propping up a genocide. It's a lose-lose situation and so no wonder SpaceX et al mostly don't bother commenting on the lie of the week.
- chaosbolt 3y ago
  >Invasion of Iraq despite them having nothing to do with 911 Just distributing freedom to the world >Not let people use your product to kill other people Facism >Refusing to help the defender is siding with the offender by allowing them to continue their senseless war of agression and genocide So by this logic anyone who helped Iraqis kill American soldiers is a good guy and anyone who refused to help the Iraqis by default sided with the US in their senseless war of agression and genocide I honestly wasn't going to reply because we all know how hard these narratives are pushed by real and less real people, but this feels like arguing with a jew, christian or muslim, there is no way you can convince them moises didn't split the sea / jesus didn't walk on water / muhamad didn't fly on a winged horse, despite how illogical or contradictory the stories are... So yeah go at it, history does repeat itself and there will always reality bending people who push false narratives and out of context words to commit more violence. But honestly wtf is wrong with you? Just turn off the computer and sit down and think of what you just said, Russia's invasion is an invasion and I am a pacifist so all invasions and wars are evil in the way I see it, but was it unprovoqued? hell no... you can't just interfere with Canadian elections and put a Russian puppet there who'll eventually apply to join anti-NATO and put nukes at your borders and not expect something in return... But whatever I still see war as the epitome of evil so Putin is evil for starting that war, it's not genocidal (you can't just lie) because they're racially the same people, hell I was alive when the USSR existed and Ukraine and Russia was the same country... But me seeing war as evil implies death as evil, so had Zelensky negociated with Putin and accepted to resign or whatever just so his people didn't die I'd have admired him, but the way he went at it makes me view him as more evil than even Putin... it's like me a father, having home invaders with guns invading my house (and we only have knives) and instead of giving up and negociating whatever solution to save the lives of my children and wife, I instead arm them with knives and send them to die... And the US in all of this? Well the US is going to do what the US always did, violence and death and war, remember in 2003 when you made fun of us (France) for not helping you with Iraq? I won't criticize your country that much since most people here are from the US and I don't want to offend everyone. And Elon in all of this? The guy is a human he's neither Ghandi or Hitler, that splitting (black and white thinking) is the most important trait in diagnosing clusted B disorders (npd, bpd, asd and hpd) so be careful with that. I'm a decent guy yet if I sold my shares in Paypal for 170 million $ I'd stop working and go chill in some island, let alone invest/start Tesla/SpaceX etc. he could've started a finance company or whatever if his only goal was going for a monetary high score, and he could've retired at 100 or 200 billion $. Sure electric cars aren't as environmentally friendly as previously thought today but eventually we can expect more sustainable energy production or whatever, and how the fck is SpaceX not beneficial to mankind, well it's risky because we'll eventually have lots of debris out there but let's be honest and say it would've been a hell of a lot easier to make more money in finance or some other domain, the guy at least had good intentions, and if you call him facist you're calling all of us facists as I already explained (I'm decent but still worse than him and given his money I'd be a lot worse). And don't even get me started on Twitter, the guy took a mainstream social media platform and lowered censorship on it, how the fck is this evil? What now all of a sudden censorship is good and free speech is bad? You can't have it both ways after fucking up Iraq to dust and selling it as freedom then now all of a sudden freedom is bad. If the site is full of right wing bigots it's a direct reaction to the left wing authoritarianism that's been going around lately, you can't just argue for censorship and firing people from their jobs for saying X and Y then expect the reaction to be a polite discussion over the philosophical merits of free speech, you are of course going to get the opposite of that. And also you can't just worship the guy in 2017 then in 2018 call him Facist this isn't a healthy outlook on things. You're showing that you have no idea what true facism is, and that's where the problem is, you become a facist yourself by demonizing others over trivial things while calling them the facists. And it has always happened so you have to be careful of that it's a normal tragic human things we do and have done in all societies. The christians prosecuted the jews because they were heathens and in doing so commited true heathen crimes, the muslims prosecuted the christians because they were heathens and in doing so commited true heathen crimes, etc. >Wikipedia: Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. So Elon isn't far-right (isn't married, doesn't criticize drugs, dresses in an edgy way, etc.), he isn't that much of an authoritarian either (hard to prove at his level because he has money so if he fires someone over something you'll twist it to argue your point, but then we're all authoritarians when it comes to us, but afaik he doesn't support any single political authoritarian regime or wishes for it to force its beliefs on people), ultranationalist (he's south african who immigrated to Canada then the US), he's not for the subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation (he was anti covid lockdowns, he's against censorship, etc.) and he's not for regimentation of society and the economy being a capitalist who never judged anyone for any habit or anything, even the women he dated were from different ideologies and had different styles. And I didn't have to go deep to prove you wrong, I'm just an average guy, so while your discourse can fly on reddit, here everyone has access to the kind of logic I used, so why bother lying on a forum like HN if you know people will just read your comment and think "this is propaganda" and move on?

sofixa 3y ago

So he actively sabotaged an Ukrainian attack against the Russian navy, just as I initially stated? His excuse is bullshit too > If I had agreed to their request, then SpaceX would be explicitly complicit in a major act of war and conflict escalation Refusing to help the defender is siding with the offender by allowing them to continue their senseless war of agression and genocide. > Calling someone a fascist is a pretty wild accusation, especially when it seems it was motivated by a misunderstanding. And he isn't flirting with fascism just because he helps Russia or mocks Zelensky having to beg for help from other countries to ensure the survival of his own, but for a whole host of other reasons. Just take a scroll through his Twitter timeline and see him getting scolded by the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs on migrants' lives, or him commenting, liking, retweeting memes full of racist or otherwise fascist-adjacent dogwhistles. PS: https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/1/23895069/walter-isaacson-biography-musk-review https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/1/23895069/walter-isaacson-... I'm even less inclined to agree with Isaacson's statements now

Workaccount2 3y ago
I don't understand how people can exist in such a clear dissonance state (Elon provides Starklink to Ukraine as a means to help Russsia, and does not offer it to Russia), and not step back and think. Like its so clear that your constructed narrative is wrong, but you are so blinded by emotion that you are totally unable to see it. Even worse, you won't even be able to read this comment without assigning it as musk propaganda written by some drooling fan boy. Seriously, the anti-musk people managed to become just as detached as the musk worshippers. If you want to be critical, get a grip, otherwise its easy for musk to hold up his detractors as idiots.
- sofixa 3y ago
  Why are you decided on making things binary? Either you're anti-musk or musk worshipper, or either musk is full on helping Ukraine or full on helping Russia. Things can, and often are far more nuanced. Like for instance, one can easily say that the Soviet Union was crucial in the war against Germany in WW2, while also being brutal genociding maniacs that committed human rights atrocities everywhere they went. > I don't understand how people can exist in such a clear dissonance state (Elon provides Starklink to Ukraine as a means to help Russsia, and does not offer it to Russia), and not step back and think. What musk did with Starlink regarding the Ukrainian planned attack was direct and active sabotage of an operation, and impeded the Ukrainian war effort. Other things he has done previously, like allowing Starlink access in Ukraine, has helped the war effort. Is that hard to comprehend? Does it have to be one or the other? The fact that he has done some good deeds, for whatever reason, doesn't change the fact that he has done far more bad deeds. His sabotage of public transit initiatives with actively harmful efforts such as the loop and hyperloop has a direct impact. His constant lies and embellishments of technological advancements is also harmful to his customers. His sharing and endorsing fascist and Russian propaganda is also harmful to the Ukrainian war effot.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  > If you want to be critical, get a grip, otherwise its easy for musk to hold up his detractors as idiots. much in the same way it is easy for a clown to dangle a shiny object in front of small children, and receive cheers and applause from a similarly small minority of people, and similarly be ignored by most other people, who recognize that the clown is a clown.
dotnet00 3y ago
Refusing to help Ukraine in that case was complying with US policy of not providing guided weapons with that range. But alas, it's clear you aren't actually interested in hearing the truth.
- sofixa 3y ago
  So satellite internet is a guided weapon?
  - inemesitaffia 3y ago
    It's a weapons component in this case. I'll remind you everyone exporting night vision equipment to Ukraine is violating export control laws..enforced or not
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    Ukraine obviously didn't have control over territory in Crimea, so any use for Starlink there would be about using it as a remote control system for a weapon, which does make it a key component of a weapon guidance system and thus something that the US did not want operating all the way through Crimea at the time. This has only recently changed with the US agreeing to supply ATACMS. It's kind of funny on many levels that when Musk or his businesses go against the US government or don't stick perfectly to its interests, your types rush out of the woodworks screeching about how the company needs to be seized and forced into compliance. But when they carefully follow the government's position, your types rush out to argue that the company and its CEO specifically are propping up a genocide. It's a lose-lose situation and so no wonder SpaceX et al mostly don't bother commenting on the lie of the week.
chaosbolt 3y ago
>Invasion of Iraq despite them having nothing to do with 911 Just distributing freedom to the world >Not let people use your product to kill other people Facism >Refusing to help the defender is siding with the offender by allowing them to continue their senseless war of agression and genocide So by this logic anyone who helped Iraqis kill American soldiers is a good guy and anyone who refused to help the Iraqis by default sided with the US in their senseless war of agression and genocide I honestly wasn't going to reply because we all know how hard these narratives are pushed by real and less real people, but this feels like arguing with a jew, christian or muslim, there is no way you can convince them moises didn't split the sea / jesus didn't walk on water / muhamad didn't fly on a winged horse, despite how illogical or contradictory the stories are... So yeah go at it, history does repeat itself and there will always reality bending people who push false narratives and out of context words to commit more violence. But honestly wtf is wrong with you? Just turn off the computer and sit down and think of what you just said, Russia's invasion is an invasion and I am a pacifist so all invasions and wars are evil in the way I see it, but was it unprovoqued? hell no... you can't just interfere with Canadian elections and put a Russian puppet there who'll eventually apply to join anti-NATO and put nukes at your borders and not expect something in return... But whatever I still see war as the epitome of evil so Putin is evil for starting that war, it's not genocidal (you can't just lie) because they're racially the same people, hell I was alive when the USSR existed and Ukraine and Russia was the same country... But me seeing war as evil implies death as evil, so had Zelensky negociated with Putin and accepted to resign or whatever just so his people didn't die I'd have admired him, but the way he went at it makes me view him as more evil than even Putin... it's like me a father, having home invaders with guns invading my house (and we only have knives) and instead of giving up and negociating whatever solution to save the lives of my children and wife, I instead arm them with knives and send them to die... And the US in all of this? Well the US is going to do what the US always did, violence and death and war, remember in 2003 when you made fun of us (France) for not helping you with Iraq? I won't criticize your country that much since most people here are from the US and I don't want to offend everyone. And Elon in all of this? The guy is a human he's neither Ghandi or Hitler, that splitting (black and white thinking) is the most important trait in diagnosing clusted B disorders (npd, bpd, asd and hpd) so be careful with that. I'm a decent guy yet if I sold my shares in Paypal for 170 million $ I'd stop working and go chill in some island, let alone invest/start Tesla/SpaceX etc. he could've started a finance company or whatever if his only goal was going for a monetary high score, and he could've retired at 100 or 200 billion $. Sure electric cars aren't as environmentally friendly as previously thought today but eventually we can expect more sustainable energy production or whatever, and how the fck is SpaceX not beneficial to mankind, well it's risky because we'll eventually have lots of debris out there but let's be honest and say it would've been a hell of a lot easier to make more money in finance or some other domain, the guy at least had good intentions, and if you call him facist you're calling all of us facists as I already explained (I'm decent but still worse than him and given his money I'd be a lot worse). And don't even get me started on Twitter, the guy took a mainstream social media platform and lowered censorship on it, how the fck is this evil? What now all of a sudden censorship is good and free speech is bad? You can't have it both ways after fucking up Iraq to dust and selling it as freedom then now all of a sudden freedom is bad. If the site is full of right wing bigots it's a direct reaction to the left wing authoritarianism that's been going around lately, you can't just argue for censorship and firing people from their jobs for saying X and Y then expect the reaction to be a polite discussion over the philosophical merits of free speech, you are of course going to get the opposite of that. And also you can't just worship the guy in 2017 then in 2018 call him Facist this isn't a healthy outlook on things. You're showing that you have no idea what true facism is, and that's where the problem is, you become a facist yourself by demonizing others over trivial things while calling them the facists. And it has always happened so you have to be careful of that it's a normal tragic human things we do and have done in all societies. The christians prosecuted the jews because they were heathens and in doing so commited true heathen crimes, the muslims prosecuted the christians because they were heathens and in doing so commited true heathen crimes, etc. >Wikipedia: Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. So Elon isn't far-right (isn't married, doesn't criticize drugs, dresses in an edgy way, etc.), he isn't that much of an authoritarian either (hard to prove at his level because he has money so if he fires someone over something you'll twist it to argue your point, but then we're all authoritarians when it comes to us, but afaik he doesn't support any single political authoritarian regime or wishes for it to force its beliefs on people), ultranationalist (he's south african who immigrated to Canada then the US), he's not for the subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation (he was anti covid lockdowns, he's against censorship, etc.) and he's not for regimentation of society and the economy being a capitalist who never judged anyone for any habit or anything, even the women he dated were from different ideologies and had different styles. And I didn't have to go deep to prove you wrong, I'm just an average guy, so while your discourse can fly on reddit, here everyone has access to the kind of logic I used, so why bother lying on a forum like HN if you know people will just read your comment and think "this is propaganda" and move on?