4 ms·

Would you feel the same way if it were a cutesy poem supporting an opposing view?

earthboundkid 3y ago
People regularly say pro-Ukraine things that are anti-pacifist. Whatever, I understand that most people are not pacifists.
MC68328 3y ago
That's a meaningless question, because I would never be using software from people promoting the opposing view. You're all free to stop using Python.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
burkaman 3y ago
Well it already is. You get to pick which direction you agree with.
- teddyh 3y ago
  > You get to pick which direction you agree with. One of the two opinions, which are all that exists. All reasonable people have the one opinion, and all other people are all idiots who all have the other opinion.
- moduspol 3y ago
  If you think both directions are comparable to actual perspectives people have, then it's already clear which perspective is yours.
- lm28469 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - istjohn 3y ago
    Well, one of the loudest voices in American politics has called them criminals and rapists, so it's not exactly a non sequitur.
bscphil 3y ago
Both-sides-ism is not some kind of "free points" move in an argument. It's entirely consistent to believe (a) that a "tame" political statement supporting immigrants is acceptable in release notes, while also believing (b) that a cutesy poem defaming immigrants would be abhorrent and unacceptable. No one has an obligation to think that all political messages are acceptable just because they think that some political messages are sometimes acceptable. Just to take an extreme example, imagine someone put in a note expressing empathy for the families of the victims of a natural disaster in their release notes. The following conversation takes place on Hacker News: A: I don't really think these sorts of statements have a place in release notes. They don't ultimately accomplish anything or help anyone. B: I think there's no problem with expressing compassion like this. It's not particularly obtrusive and isn't harming anyone. You: How would you feel if the release notes had expressed glee at the disaster instead? You would oppose that, right? That means you must also oppose empathetic messages in release notes, to be consistent. Or to sum up this whole thing in a dril Tweet: https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312 https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312
- moduspol 3y ago
  > It's entirely consistent to believe (a) that a "tame" political statement supporting immigrants is acceptable in release notes, while also believing (b) that a cutesy poem defaming immigrants would be abhorrent and unacceptable. The opposing cutesy poem wouldn't be defaming immigrants! It would be acknowledging a nation can't exist without borders, sovereignty matters, and unchecked migration is not universally good. That so many commenters here are missing a key factor here (that the opposing view is presented as a disingenuous straw-man in the release notes) is quite illustrative of why it's not being seen as an issue.
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    > It would be acknowledging a nation can't exist without borders, So the EU and US are both monolithic blocks with no internal diversity, right? "Acknowledging" is an especially interesting choice of word here, as if presupposing that your misunderstanding of the world is inherently correct.
IKantRead 3y ago
Could you articulate what that opposing view is in this case? It's also worth pointing out that Python (and it's ecosystem) is developed by an international team of people, most of whom volunteer their time out of good will and sense of shared purpose across diverse cultures. The "both sides" logic seems to miss the point that world without mutual aid and international, cross-cultural cooperation would be one that would not have Python and it's ecosystem. It's not political for the Python developers to support such a view, such a view is foundational for the existence of Python.
- seanw444 3y ago
  > Could you articulate what that opposing view is in this case? They wrote about how abortion is very often immoral and unnecessary. That would get people up in arms.
- moduspol 3y ago
  One can be supportive of mutual aid and international, cross-cultural cooperation while also acknowledging that a nation doesn't exist without borders, sovereignty matters, and that unchecked migration is not universally good. When you include the contemporary context of illegal US border crossings at record numbers [1], it's clearly making a political statement. Pretending the development of a programming language is inexorably linked to unchecked immigration is disingenuous. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/31/border-families-record-crossings-biden/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/31/border...
  - IKantRead 3y ago
    Could you point out where they are supporting "unchecked migration"? The statement there only reads to me as a call to have compassion for those caught up in what will be a perpetually escalating migration crisis (and will likely soon make migrants of those who are currently protecting their borders). > Pretending the development of a programming language is inexorably linked to unchecked immigration is disingenuous. Where am I (or anyone else) making that claim? I'm claiming cross-cultural/international cooperation and mutual aid are unquestionably tied to the development of not just a programming language, but all open source software. Anyone who has worked in this space at all can likely list someone they have worked with on nearly every continent. The fact that you view calls for compassion and empathy as calls for "unchecked migration" is a bit concerning.

People regularly say pro-Ukraine things that are anti-pacifist. Whatever, I understand that most people are not pacifists.

MC68328 3y ago

That's a meaningless question, because I would never be using software from people promoting the opposing view. You're all free to stop using Python.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

burkaman 3y ago

Well it already is. You get to pick which direction you agree with.

teddyh 3y ago
> You get to pick which direction you agree with. One of the two opinions, which are all that exists. All reasonable people have the one opinion, and all other people are all idiots who all have the other opinion.
moduspol 3y ago
If you think both directions are comparable to actual perspectives people have, then it's already clear which perspective is yours.
lm28469 3y ago
[flagged]
- istjohn 3y ago
  Well, one of the loudest voices in American politics has called them criminals and rapists, so it's not exactly a non sequitur.

bscphil 3y ago

Both-sides-ism is not some kind of "free points" move in an argument. It's entirely consistent to believe (a) that a "tame" political statement supporting immigrants is acceptable in release notes, while also believing (b) that a cutesy poem defaming immigrants would be abhorrent and unacceptable. No one has an obligation to think that all political messages are acceptable just because they think that some political messages are sometimes acceptable. Just to take an extreme example, imagine someone put in a note expressing empathy for the families of the victims of a natural disaster in their release notes. The following conversation takes place on Hacker News: A: I don't really think these sorts of statements have a place in release notes. They don't ultimately accomplish anything or help anyone. B: I think there's no problem with expressing compassion like this. It's not particularly obtrusive and isn't harming anyone. You: How would you feel if the release notes had expressed glee at the disaster instead? You would oppose that, right? That means you must also oppose empathetic messages in release notes, to be consistent. Or to sum up this whole thing in a dril Tweet: https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312 https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312

moduspol 3y ago
> It's entirely consistent to believe (a) that a "tame" political statement supporting immigrants is acceptable in release notes, while also believing (b) that a cutesy poem defaming immigrants would be abhorrent and unacceptable. The opposing cutesy poem wouldn't be defaming immigrants! It would be acknowledging a nation can't exist without borders, sovereignty matters, and unchecked migration is not universally good. That so many commenters here are missing a key factor here (that the opposing view is presented as a disingenuous straw-man in the release notes) is quite illustrative of why it's not being seen as an issue.
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  > It would be acknowledging a nation can't exist without borders, So the EU and US are both monolithic blocks with no internal diversity, right? "Acknowledging" is an especially interesting choice of word here, as if presupposing that your misunderstanding of the world is inherently correct.

IKantRead 3y ago

Could you articulate what that opposing view is in this case? It's also worth pointing out that Python (and it's ecosystem) is developed by an international team of people, most of whom volunteer their time out of good will and sense of shared purpose across diverse cultures. The "both sides" logic seems to miss the point that world without mutual aid and international, cross-cultural cooperation would be one that would not have Python and it's ecosystem. It's not political for the Python developers to support such a view, such a view is foundational for the existence of Python.

seanw444 3y ago
> Could you articulate what that opposing view is in this case? They wrote about how abortion is very often immoral and unnecessary. That would get people up in arms.
moduspol 3y ago
One can be supportive of mutual aid and international, cross-cultural cooperation while also acknowledging that a nation doesn't exist without borders, sovereignty matters, and that unchecked migration is not universally good. When you include the contemporary context of illegal US border crossings at record numbers [1], it's clearly making a political statement. Pretending the development of a programming language is inexorably linked to unchecked immigration is disingenuous. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/31/border-families-record-crossings-biden/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/31/border...
- IKantRead 3y ago
  Could you point out where they are supporting "unchecked migration"? The statement there only reads to me as a call to have compassion for those caught up in what will be a perpetually escalating migration crisis (and will likely soon make migrants of those who are currently protecting their borders). > Pretending the development of a programming language is inexorably linked to unchecked immigration is disingenuous. Where am I (or anyone else) making that claim? I'm claiming cross-cultural/international cooperation and mutual aid are unquestionably tied to the development of not just a programming language, but all open source software. Anyone who has worked in this space at all can likely list someone they have worked with on nearly every continent. The fact that you view calls for compassion and empathy as calls for "unchecked migration" is a bit concerning.