4 ms·

This comes dangerously close to "shit-testing", making a difficult and unreasonable demand not because you care, but because you want to test the other's loyalt

This comes dangerously close to "shit-testing", making a difficult and unreasonable demand not because you care, but because you want to test the other's loyalty. I think such strategies may be poisonous in the longer term. Now you've got to drink that damn orange juice, your business gets a reputation for obsession with rituals involving orange juice, and maybe even people start believing it - or start enjoying being difficult a little too much.

throw9away6 3y ago
I mean it’s not that hard to rent a couple juicing machines and make 700 cups of oj. Maybe a bit expensive because you have to source them in a large radius but not crazy expensive. If it has to be done manually ok then it’s just expensive because of labor costs but still 20 people could probably knock it out with a press. I’d probably charge at least 5-6$ a head for that ideally closer to $10 just because it’s not simple to arrange but doable
- upon_drumhead 3y ago
  Or the venue is just lying and gives you frozen concentrate.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  A cup of orange juice is typically pretty small and resturant juicers work pretty fast. A big banquet hall that does mimosas probably already has the equipment to accommodate this request. (Or close enough, I'd juice a bit the night before to get a sense of the time and have some in case we run out)
  - hattmall 3y ago
    And realistically, I saw no requirement of 100% fresh squeezed orange juice. So at most we're doing 51% fresh squeezed. I'm not sure it specified a size either. So we can certainly shave half an ounce or more off of whatever is customary.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      You could always send the busboy to the grocery store to pick up a few gallons if you run short. When you do big parties like that you don't just randomly distribute servings. I'd have the overfull, 100% real, ten minute old OJ for the guy with the really particular request and could end up serving sunny delight to the cheap seats. To serve 700 people a drink takes a considerable amount of time in and of itself so you have more breathing room than you expect. This is really common. When you do a wedding the bride and grooms table gets the best looking portions you have, the table next to the bathroom isn't so lucky.
      - jiggawatts 3y ago
        You and the person you replied to both failed the test. The requirements were clear and specific and you cheated to achieve the goal you assumed, not the goal that was stated.
        malfist 3y ago
        To be clear, the author specifically includes that the OJ must be fresh and squeezed no more than 2 hour prior
        willcipriano 3y ago
        > OJ must be fresh and squeezed no more than 2 hour prior He also has no clue that it's 2 hours old or 4 hour old. What he really wants to do is tell his guests "this was fresh squeezed, two hours old" and he will get what he paid for, just like his Maine lobster (thats probably Russian) or softshell crabs from Alaska (China), or Key lime pie (Chinese lime juice). That's how the resturant industry works, this test is useless there.
        greenhexagon 3y ago
        Blogpost: "To figure out which vendors are truth worthy, see if they give a realistic and thoughtful response to a specific request" willcipriano: "This wouldn't work on me, because I'd just do fraud"
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >A big banquet hall that does mimosas probably already has the equipment to accommodate this request. In which case it's the wrong request. The article specifically says it should be a very onerous request.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  I think the point is less about how to specifically make 700 glasses of orange juice in the 2 hours between 5 and 7am and more about forcing a supplier to come up with a meaningful quote at non-zero cost, presumably to say "actually never mind, it was a test" or just ignore the effort. Unless this is service they already provide: even if they only have to ring round juicer machine hire in the area and figure out the logistics of getting it to the site on time it's not free to the venue. It's a way to offload the cost of your internal requirements onto each supplier, and if fact is more punitive on better suppliers who make the effort to allocate resources into coming up with a quote for a service you don't even want.
hnreport 3y ago
[flagged]
cmiller1 3y ago
It's almost the exact opposite of that, it's making an unreasonable demand specifically to suss out if the other person is just telling you what they think you want to hear or is engaging in the task in good faith.
- feoren 3y ago
  If that were true, then "I'm sorry, I don't think we can accommodate that particular request. Can we negotiate on the exact details? We can provide not-from-concentrate store-bought orange juice ..." should pass the test. But this author unequivocally states that saying they can't do it is a hard fail. I'd be happy to fail this test and dodge the bullet of an unreasonable client.
  - cmiller1 3y ago
    Ahh yeah, I'm not sure I agree with the author there.
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago
  So it's the "only green M+Ms" request of Led Zepplin to make sure the concert venues were reading the contracts?
Etherlord87 3y ago
I've re-read the article and couldn't find anything that would suggest the requirement is fake, as in, the juice is actually not needed. > One important condition is that the company has the hallowed tradition of starting the day’s event at 7 in the morning, with a toast to success, using Orange Juice. So it's a hypothetical situation, in which the company really needs the juice. In reality, you probably need something else: > It helps if people come up with a question or a set of questions that serve the equivalent of the Orange Juice Test question. > If you are a technical manager, it can be as simple as ‘ How do you program feature X or Y ?’ Isolate a hard part of what you need, and ask about the cost of it - that's how I understood the article.
jstarfish 3y ago
It is shit-testing, only with a different taste. Shit-tasting. You see this in personal ads all the time. Women get so many low-effort messages they introduce a canary of sorts ("start your response with the word purple") just to filter out the ones who didn't pay any attention to their profile. Reasonable enough, right? Where it becomes shit-testing is when their profile is a novel-length manifesto. It demands a lot of commitment upfront for no guarantee of returns. But if you're willing to put up with such demands, enjoy pursuing a relationship with someone who makes a game of testing the boundaries of others. It'll be so much fun for you. > The only response worth serious consideration is ‘we can do this — and this is how much it will cost’. I'd be livid if I went to the trouble of sourcing juicers, oranges and staff and providing a quote just to be told it was just a test to see if I read the contract. Clearly, wasting others' time means nothing to the author. Does he also prank call businesses and harass the representatives to test their professionalism? As with dating, negotiation in bad faith is not a sign of a healthy relationship to come.
mablopoule 3y ago
It's not supposed to test the other's loyalty, but if the other party is grounded to reality. It's potentially possible, but hard, time consuming, and thus expensive. In the same spirit (but for another reason), the famous "Van Halen brown M&Ms clause" [1], which served as a proxy for how likely the venue also read & complied with the safety precautions for the concert. [1] https://businessofsoftware.org/2013/08/the-truth-about-van-halens-mm-rider-just-good-operations/ https://businessofsoftware.org/2013/08/the-truth-about-van-h...

throw9away6 3y ago

I mean it’s not that hard to rent a couple juicing machines and make 700 cups of oj. Maybe a bit expensive because you have to source them in a large radius but not crazy expensive. If it has to be done manually ok then it’s just expensive because of labor costs but still 20 people could probably knock it out with a press. I’d probably charge at least 5-6$ a head for that ideally closer to $10 just because it’s not simple to arrange but doable

upon_drumhead 3y ago
Or the venue is just lying and gives you frozen concentrate.
willcipriano 3y ago
A cup of orange juice is typically pretty small and resturant juicers work pretty fast. A big banquet hall that does mimosas probably already has the equipment to accommodate this request. (Or close enough, I'd juice a bit the night before to get a sense of the time and have some in case we run out)
- hattmall 3y ago
  And realistically, I saw no requirement of 100% fresh squeezed orange juice. So at most we're doing 51% fresh squeezed. I'm not sure it specified a size either. So we can certainly shave half an ounce or more off of whatever is customary.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    You could always send the busboy to the grocery store to pick up a few gallons if you run short. When you do big parties like that you don't just randomly distribute servings. I'd have the overfull, 100% real, ten minute old OJ for the guy with the really particular request and could end up serving sunny delight to the cheap seats. To serve 700 people a drink takes a considerable amount of time in and of itself so you have more breathing room than you expect. This is really common. When you do a wedding the bride and grooms table gets the best looking portions you have, the table next to the bathroom isn't so lucky.
    - jiggawatts 3y ago
      You and the person you replied to both failed the test. The requirements were clear and specific and you cheated to achieve the goal you assumed, not the goal that was stated.
      - malfist 3y ago
        To be clear, the author specifically includes that the OJ must be fresh and squeezed no more than 2 hour prior
        willcipriano 3y ago
        > OJ must be fresh and squeezed no more than 2 hour prior He also has no clue that it's 2 hours old or 4 hour old. What he really wants to do is tell his guests "this was fresh squeezed, two hours old" and he will get what he paid for, just like his Maine lobster (thats probably Russian) or softshell crabs from Alaska (China), or Key lime pie (Chinese lime juice). That's how the resturant industry works, this test is useless there.
        greenhexagon 3y ago
        Blogpost: "To figure out which vendors are truth worthy, see if they give a realistic and thoughtful response to a specific request" willcipriano: "This wouldn't work on me, because I'd just do fraud"
- thfuran 3y ago
  >A big banquet hall that does mimosas probably already has the equipment to accommodate this request. In which case it's the wrong request. The article specifically says it should be a very onerous request.
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
I think the point is less about how to specifically make 700 glasses of orange juice in the 2 hours between 5 and 7am and more about forcing a supplier to come up with a meaningful quote at non-zero cost, presumably to say "actually never mind, it was a test" or just ignore the effort. Unless this is service they already provide: even if they only have to ring round juicer machine hire in the area and figure out the logistics of getting it to the site on time it's not free to the venue. It's a way to offload the cost of your internal requirements onto each supplier, and if fact is more punitive on better suppliers who make the effort to allocate resources into coming up with a quote for a service you don't even want.

hnreport 3y ago

[flagged]

cmiller1 3y ago

It's almost the exact opposite of that, it's making an unreasonable demand specifically to suss out if the other person is just telling you what they think you want to hear or is engaging in the task in good faith.

feoren 3y ago
If that were true, then "I'm sorry, I don't think we can accommodate that particular request. Can we negotiate on the exact details? We can provide not-from-concentrate store-bought orange juice ..." should pass the test. But this author unequivocally states that saying they can't do it is a hard fail. I'd be happy to fail this test and dodge the bullet of an unreasonable client.
- cmiller1 3y ago
  Ahh yeah, I'm not sure I agree with the author there.
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
So it's the "only green M+Ms" request of Led Zepplin to make sure the concert venues were reading the contracts?

Etherlord87 3y ago

I've re-read the article and couldn't find anything that would suggest the requirement is fake, as in, the juice is actually not needed. > One important condition is that the company has the hallowed tradition of starting the day’s event at 7 in the morning, with a toast to success, using Orange Juice. So it's a hypothetical situation, in which the company really needs the juice. In reality, you probably need something else: > It helps if people come up with a question or a set of questions that serve the equivalent of the Orange Juice Test question. > If you are a technical manager, it can be as simple as ‘ How do you program feature X or Y ?’ Isolate a hard part of what you need, and ask about the cost of it - that's how I understood the article.

jstarfish 3y ago

It is shit-testing, only with a different taste. Shit-tasting. You see this in personal ads all the time. Women get so many low-effort messages they introduce a canary of sorts ("start your response with the word purple") just to filter out the ones who didn't pay any attention to their profile. Reasonable enough, right? Where it becomes shit-testing is when their profile is a novel-length manifesto. It demands a lot of commitment upfront for no guarantee of returns. But if you're willing to put up with such demands, enjoy pursuing a relationship with someone who makes a game of testing the boundaries of others. It'll be so much fun for you. > The only response worth serious consideration is ‘we can do this — and this is how much it will cost’. I'd be livid if I went to the trouble of sourcing juicers, oranges and staff and providing a quote just to be told it was just a test to see if I read the contract. Clearly, wasting others' time means nothing to the author. Does he also prank call businesses and harass the representatives to test their professionalism? As with dating, negotiation in bad faith is not a sign of a healthy relationship to come.

mablopoule 3y ago

It's not supposed to test the other's loyalty, but if the other party is grounded to reality. It's potentially possible, but hard, time consuming, and thus expensive. In the same spirit (but for another reason), the famous "Van Halen brown M&Ms clause" [1], which served as a proxy for how likely the venue also read & complied with the safety precautions for the concert. [1] https://businessofsoftware.org/2013/08/the-truth-about-van-halens-mm-rider-just-good-operations/ https://businessofsoftware.org/2013/08/the-truth-about-van-h...