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I'm hopeful that you're right about the future of the technology. > This fed into conspiracy theories about it being unsafe because it was rushed but it was no

I'm hopeful that you're right about the future of the technology. > This fed into conspiracy theories about it being unsafe because it was rushed but it was nothing more than the culmination of decades of research where fast vaccine turnaround was the entire point. That's one interpretation. I wonder if you'd apply that same interpretation to the first few viable aircraft. Surely flight was studied for millennia at the point that the wright brothers got their plane flying. Would you hop in and try to cross the Atlantic on one? Or would you fall prey to conspiracy theories that maybe they hadn't worked out all the kinks yet? edit: I suppose I'm being downvoted for spreading Big Wheel's antiwinger talking points.

foogazi 3y ago
I still think about this when flying, ultimately it’s a choice and you have to trust a whole chain of humans ( pilots, techs, controllers, engineers, suppliers ) doing things the right way - makes you realize flight is really a miracle
- ifyoubuildit 3y ago
  I dont mind getting in a plane these days (aside from all the bullshit you have to deal with on either end of the trip). I would be a little hesitant to be strapped into Flyer I or even Flyer II. I wonder if there was stigma for that position back then? Maybe if it had the right marketing budget.
thinkcontext 3y ago
> I suppose I'm being downvoted for spreading Big Wheel's antiwinger talking points. No, for an absolutely abysmal analogy.
- ifyoubuildit 3y ago
  I'm responding to the argument that decades of research is enough to feel safe using a technology. Maybe there is a better argument, but OP didn't make it. How long have we studied the fountain of youth? The cure for baldness? Penis enlargement pills? Would you trust any of today's solutions to those problems? Research time is necessary but not sufficient. What I and many others care about is time in production usage. What's so abysmal about this line of thinking?
  - whoisthemachine 3y ago
    The comparison you made was not accurate. We have a pretty good handle on the science of how the body builds up immunity to pathogens (most lay folks can tell you something about white blood cells). I think a more apt analogy would be prop planes are to dead virus vaccines as jet planes are to mRNA vaccines. And I do think we were jumping into jet planes fairly quickly after inventing them, because at that point we already understood the principles of flight well, jet turbine engines were just another mechanism of delivery.
    - ifyoubuildit 3y ago
      What does pretty good handle mean to you? We obviously know some things - we have various models that are predictive. We seem decent at figuring out if I do X, then Y will happen with some frequency. And thats the sort of thing that will sell a drug like hot cakes. We don't seem good at knowing that it doesn't also cause Z, A, B, C, etc, and by the time you figure any of that out, the checks have already been cashed and spent. I don't think lay folks being able to regurgitate some terminology says much. Lay folks could tell you that birds flap their wings long before we had controlled manned flight.
      - whoisthemachine 3y ago
        Maybe I'm not tracking the argument. Are you saying that because we can't completely model the body's response to a drug or immunization through to the body's eventual death, we shouldn't trust it or use it?
        ifyoubuildit 3y ago
        My argument was just that this is weak, nothing more: > This fed into conspiracy theories about it being unsafe because it was rushed but it was nothing more than the culmination of decades of research where fast vaccine turnaround was the entire point. Some people want to count all of the research time that went into mRNA tech as part of its "age" as a technology, like when it was being first tested on mice, or still failing small scale human trials. Others (like me) start the clock at the point when it started being rolled out in people en mass. That has nothing to do with conspiracy theories (everyone's favorite mental shortcut). It has everything to do with not wanting others foisting their risk calculus on my medical decisions. It was somewhat understandable when everyone was being blasted with the propaganda about killing grandma, but we should be clear now that it was never actually appropriate to be trying to force this thing on anyone, and that was one of the bullshit arguments used to do so.
bigbillheck 3y ago
> edit: I suppose I'm being downvoted for spreading Big Wheel's antiwinger talking points. I downvoted you for complaining about being downvoted.

foogazi 3y ago

I still think about this when flying, ultimately it’s a choice and you have to trust a whole chain of humans ( pilots, techs, controllers, engineers, suppliers ) doing things the right way - makes you realize flight is really a miracle

ifyoubuildit 3y ago
I dont mind getting in a plane these days (aside from all the bullshit you have to deal with on either end of the trip). I would be a little hesitant to be strapped into Flyer I or even Flyer II. I wonder if there was stigma for that position back then? Maybe if it had the right marketing budget.

thinkcontext 3y ago

> I suppose I'm being downvoted for spreading Big Wheel's antiwinger talking points. No, for an absolutely abysmal analogy.

ifyoubuildit 3y ago
I'm responding to the argument that decades of research is enough to feel safe using a technology. Maybe there is a better argument, but OP didn't make it. How long have we studied the fountain of youth? The cure for baldness? Penis enlargement pills? Would you trust any of today's solutions to those problems? Research time is necessary but not sufficient. What I and many others care about is time in production usage. What's so abysmal about this line of thinking?
- whoisthemachine 3y ago
  The comparison you made was not accurate. We have a pretty good handle on the science of how the body builds up immunity to pathogens (most lay folks can tell you something about white blood cells). I think a more apt analogy would be prop planes are to dead virus vaccines as jet planes are to mRNA vaccines. And I do think we were jumping into jet planes fairly quickly after inventing them, because at that point we already understood the principles of flight well, jet turbine engines were just another mechanism of delivery.
  - ifyoubuildit 3y ago
    What does pretty good handle mean to you? We obviously know some things - we have various models that are predictive. We seem decent at figuring out if I do X, then Y will happen with some frequency. And thats the sort of thing that will sell a drug like hot cakes. We don't seem good at knowing that it doesn't also cause Z, A, B, C, etc, and by the time you figure any of that out, the checks have already been cashed and spent. I don't think lay folks being able to regurgitate some terminology says much. Lay folks could tell you that birds flap their wings long before we had controlled manned flight.
    - whoisthemachine 3y ago
      Maybe I'm not tracking the argument. Are you saying that because we can't completely model the body's response to a drug or immunization through to the body's eventual death, we shouldn't trust it or use it?
      - ifyoubuildit 3y ago
        My argument was just that this is weak, nothing more: > This fed into conspiracy theories about it being unsafe because it was rushed but it was nothing more than the culmination of decades of research where fast vaccine turnaround was the entire point. Some people want to count all of the research time that went into mRNA tech as part of its "age" as a technology, like when it was being first tested on mice, or still failing small scale human trials. Others (like me) start the clock at the point when it started being rolled out in people en mass. That has nothing to do with conspiracy theories (everyone's favorite mental shortcut). It has everything to do with not wanting others foisting their risk calculus on my medical decisions. It was somewhat understandable when everyone was being blasted with the propaganda about killing grandma, but we should be clear now that it was never actually appropriate to be trying to force this thing on anyone, and that was one of the bullshit arguments used to do so.

bigbillheck 3y ago

> edit: I suppose I'm being downvoted for spreading Big Wheel's antiwinger talking points. I downvoted you for complaining about being downvoted.