5 ms·

A commandment that one shall not view one's work e-mail, nor one's Teams, nor one's Slack or anything else work-related for one day in each seven would do a rem

A commandment that one shall not view one's work e-mail, nor one's Teams, nor one's Slack or anything else work-related for one day in each seven would do a remarkable amount for mental health in the modern world. It would also send a signal to employers that there's a part of their employees' souls they do not own. (Yes, emergency services and all that. Modern Israel has already thought of that one.)

edanm 3y ago
> (Yes, emergency services and all that. Modern Israel has already thought of that one.) Modern Israel doesn't have anything close to a commandment that one shall not view one's work email on the Sabbath :) More seriously, while a large percentage of Israel are religious Jews, a large part of it are secular Jews who don't keep the Sabbath, and a large part are Muslims. There are some things that are closed on Saturday, and there are laws about things having to be closed, but in lots of cities many things are still open. It is still true to say that a lot of stuff is closed on Saturday (most stores are closed), and this is a big problem, since for many people, Saturday is their only day off, and they can't do any shopping on that day. If you need to e.g. go with your kids to buy new shoes, you can't do it on your one day off, so it's a pain. (Fridays things are open, but close early, and most kids have school on Friday.) So all of this is a mixed bag, honestly.
xnorswap 3y ago
Am I weird in that I don't touch my work computer outside of my Monday-Friday work hours, and have never felt pressure to do so?
- marssaxman 3y ago
  I feel the same, and sometimes wonder why others don't. I have never put work email or slack on my personal phone, either - that can go on a work phone, if the company cares enough to buy me one, which they usually don't.
  - ntlk 3y ago
    Like you I don’t have any work apps or accounts on personal devices, so it’s very easy to shut the work laptop down at the end of a day and keep the separation of church and state.
- red_admiral 3y ago
  I have worked for employers that would have thought that weird, and probably would have fired the first person to do so. They didn't even pay that well. It's partly a cultural thing - in both Germany and Israel, for very different reasons, "we own your Sabbath" would not fly. UK/US it seems to be much more normal to assume employees are always available, though it varies by sector.
  - nicoburns 3y ago
    In the UK I've found the expectation to generally be that you're available in an emergency. But not just for everyday business as usual activities. I have all work-related notifications turned off outside of working hours, but my employer has my phone number in case of emergency.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      My boss called me once, at 9 PM. I went in to fix a problem. I was there until 1 AM. I was fine with it, because it happened once. In 13 years. Yeah, sure, I can come in for an emergency. (Also, my boss was already there when I arrived, and was still there when I left.) There's an emergency every other day? Nope. That's a management issue. Hire some people to work those hours, or fix things so that "emergencies" quit happening.
      - red_admiral 3y ago
        > There's an emergency every other day? Nope. That's a management issue. Hire some people to work those hours, or fix things so that "emergencies" quit happening. That seems to be pretty much the issue with the ASLEF/RMT strikes on the UK railways at the moment. At least in the sense that "emergency" means we'd have to cancel a train if someone doesn't work that overtime.
    - cameronh90 3y ago
      I'm in the UK and even emergencies have always been treated as best effort wherever I've worked. If it's the weekend, you might be drunk / on the beach / on a plane / whatever. Obviously, if it is a genuine rare emergency, most people are generally fine to help if they are around.
- ntlk 3y ago
  I’m the same, but in most workplaces I’d been the odd one out. Many colleagues would check Slack even on holiday, so I had to be really explicit that when I’m not working, I am _really_ not working. Edited to say that this attitude never got me in trouble. Given the conversation on mental health, work-life balance etc this clear boundary seems to be well respected. I’m in the UK.
  - xnorswap 3y ago
    I should note that I'm also in the UK. I've definitely met people who haven't been able to leave their work behind when on holiday. I've not worked anywhere where that's a majority, but as a minority they were obviously more noticed for it, especially when they were sending emails at 5am or from a beach somewhere. They would reject the advice that they should just stop working sometimes, they saw themselves as too important and too critical to the business. They imagined that if they didn't respond to an email the same day they received it that the business would fall apart. This isn't the case of course, but they lived in fear that they'd "let the company down", or that things would fall apart without them being always available, but they never let that actually be tested. One infamous colleague was rumoured to be replying to business emails on their honeymoon. ( Probably just a rumour. I hope. ) Indeed, had they tested it, they'd have likely discovered that they would get away with being on holiday without responding. Indeed even that having work/life boundaries are actually seen as a positive thing not a detriment. I found myself suddenly taking 14 months off work from zero notice due to my health. Despite the fact I thought myself as fairly important to the development team at that time, but did the business fall apart? No, it just got on with adapting to the new reality and my absence was barely felt. It can be uncomfortable for some, but the business will manage without you. Indeed if it couldn't, then that's a critical failure point that should be optimised out. You're also preventing yourself from being promoted if you've put the business in a situation where literally no-one else can fill your role. I find I get frustrated when people don't test limits nearly enough, especially when those limits are either imagined or due to too much deference to the concept of "the business" as some kind of entity that must be pleased. People will work long hours, or work their weekends so that they never miss a deadline, but have never tested to see what happens if that deadline gets missed. The reality might be that they actually get more resource to do it in time, rather than the imagined reality of disaster for everyone. Especially in the UK with good employment laws, there is never a case where someone could be dismissed for not working their weekends. It almost surely would be unfair dismissal, and companies know this. But that doesn't stop inexperienced workers from half-killing themselves to get something done. And that stress can bleed into their interactions with other colleagues, no just because overworking increases stress generally, but because they will often see colleagues who refuse to sacrifice their free time as "lazy", further increasing hostility. Becoming trapped by the imagined result from saying "no" or setting boundaries causes those walls to grow higher, as norms in relationships are set around crazy hours or never saying no, increasing the size of the perceived disaster to finally saying no. Eventually this often leads to burnout or worse, finally snapping and unreasonably shutting down completely in what used to be termed a "nervous breakdown" although I suspect that term isn't the current one. I've learned to set expectations early, even signalling in interview, that I will not be that kind of person. That I'm comfortable setting boundaries and comfortable with challenging people who over-work.
Adverblessly 3y ago
To quote from the fine article in Deuteronomy, it is written: “Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your manservant, or your maidservant, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you.” I.e. you are already not supposed to do any form of work on Shabbat just based on the existing commandments. Naturally that includes work via email or IM.
gumby 3y ago
> A commandment that one shall not view one's work e-mail, nor one's Teams, nor one's Slack ... Religion could be useful if it could simply ban shitty software like those examples.
- Tao3300 3y ago
  Then a few millenia from now, scholars will be debating whether or not e-mail, Teams, and Slack were accurately translated into Jovian Esperanto or whatever the language of the day is.
  - gumby 3y ago
    Turns out hexapodia was the key insight all along!
- coffeefirst 3y ago
  This is a great idea. I'm pretty sure had mobile phones existed in the Mediterranean during the Achaemenid era, the idea of what kind of notifications and algorithms are kosher would have made it into the Torah.
  - gumby 3y ago
    > I'm pretty sure had mobile phones existed in the Mediterranean during the Achaemenid era... Isn't that how the angels talked with the gods?
tomjen3 3y ago
For some people yes. For others, like me, being able to see that there is no disaters waiting can be nice. I have no issue leaving work til monday, but its nice to know I don't have to start monday with a looming disaster.

edanm 3y ago

> (Yes, emergency services and all that. Modern Israel has already thought of that one.) Modern Israel doesn't have anything close to a commandment that one shall not view one's work email on the Sabbath :) More seriously, while a large percentage of Israel are religious Jews, a large part of it are secular Jews who don't keep the Sabbath, and a large part are Muslims. There are some things that are closed on Saturday, and there are laws about things having to be closed, but in lots of cities many things are still open. It is still true to say that a lot of stuff is closed on Saturday (most stores are closed), and this is a big problem, since for many people, Saturday is their only day off, and they can't do any shopping on that day. If you need to e.g. go with your kids to buy new shoes, you can't do it on your one day off, so it's a pain. (Fridays things are open, but close early, and most kids have school on Friday.) So all of this is a mixed bag, honestly.

xnorswap 3y ago

Am I weird in that I don't touch my work computer outside of my Monday-Friday work hours, and have never felt pressure to do so?

marssaxman 3y ago
I feel the same, and sometimes wonder why others don't. I have never put work email or slack on my personal phone, either - that can go on a work phone, if the company cares enough to buy me one, which they usually don't.
- ntlk 3y ago
  Like you I don’t have any work apps or accounts on personal devices, so it’s very easy to shut the work laptop down at the end of a day and keep the separation of church and state.
red_admiral 3y ago
I have worked for employers that would have thought that weird, and probably would have fired the first person to do so. They didn't even pay that well. It's partly a cultural thing - in both Germany and Israel, for very different reasons, "we own your Sabbath" would not fly. UK/US it seems to be much more normal to assume employees are always available, though it varies by sector.
- nicoburns 3y ago
  In the UK I've found the expectation to generally be that you're available in an emergency. But not just for everyday business as usual activities. I have all work-related notifications turned off outside of working hours, but my employer has my phone number in case of emergency.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    My boss called me once, at 9 PM. I went in to fix a problem. I was there until 1 AM. I was fine with it, because it happened once. In 13 years. Yeah, sure, I can come in for an emergency. (Also, my boss was already there when I arrived, and was still there when I left.) There's an emergency every other day? Nope. That's a management issue. Hire some people to work those hours, or fix things so that "emergencies" quit happening.
    - red_admiral 3y ago
      > There's an emergency every other day? Nope. That's a management issue. Hire some people to work those hours, or fix things so that "emergencies" quit happening. That seems to be pretty much the issue with the ASLEF/RMT strikes on the UK railways at the moment. At least in the sense that "emergency" means we'd have to cancel a train if someone doesn't work that overtime.
  - cameronh90 3y ago
    I'm in the UK and even emergencies have always been treated as best effort wherever I've worked. If it's the weekend, you might be drunk / on the beach / on a plane / whatever. Obviously, if it is a genuine rare emergency, most people are generally fine to help if they are around.
ntlk 3y ago
I’m the same, but in most workplaces I’d been the odd one out. Many colleagues would check Slack even on holiday, so I had to be really explicit that when I’m not working, I am _really_ not working. Edited to say that this attitude never got me in trouble. Given the conversation on mental health, work-life balance etc this clear boundary seems to be well respected. I’m in the UK.
- xnorswap 3y ago
  I should note that I'm also in the UK. I've definitely met people who haven't been able to leave their work behind when on holiday. I've not worked anywhere where that's a majority, but as a minority they were obviously more noticed for it, especially when they were sending emails at 5am or from a beach somewhere. They would reject the advice that they should just stop working sometimes, they saw themselves as too important and too critical to the business. They imagined that if they didn't respond to an email the same day they received it that the business would fall apart. This isn't the case of course, but they lived in fear that they'd "let the company down", or that things would fall apart without them being always available, but they never let that actually be tested. One infamous colleague was rumoured to be replying to business emails on their honeymoon. ( Probably just a rumour. I hope. ) Indeed, had they tested it, they'd have likely discovered that they would get away with being on holiday without responding. Indeed even that having work/life boundaries are actually seen as a positive thing not a detriment. I found myself suddenly taking 14 months off work from zero notice due to my health. Despite the fact I thought myself as fairly important to the development team at that time, but did the business fall apart? No, it just got on with adapting to the new reality and my absence was barely felt. It can be uncomfortable for some, but the business will manage without you. Indeed if it couldn't, then that's a critical failure point that should be optimised out. You're also preventing yourself from being promoted if you've put the business in a situation where literally no-one else can fill your role. I find I get frustrated when people don't test limits nearly enough, especially when those limits are either imagined or due to too much deference to the concept of "the business" as some kind of entity that must be pleased. People will work long hours, or work their weekends so that they never miss a deadline, but have never tested to see what happens if that deadline gets missed. The reality might be that they actually get more resource to do it in time, rather than the imagined reality of disaster for everyone. Especially in the UK with good employment laws, there is never a case where someone could be dismissed for not working their weekends. It almost surely would be unfair dismissal, and companies know this. But that doesn't stop inexperienced workers from half-killing themselves to get something done. And that stress can bleed into their interactions with other colleagues, no just because overworking increases stress generally, but because they will often see colleagues who refuse to sacrifice their free time as "lazy", further increasing hostility. Becoming trapped by the imagined result from saying "no" or setting boundaries causes those walls to grow higher, as norms in relationships are set around crazy hours or never saying no, increasing the size of the perceived disaster to finally saying no. Eventually this often leads to burnout or worse, finally snapping and unreasonably shutting down completely in what used to be termed a "nervous breakdown" although I suspect that term isn't the current one. I've learned to set expectations early, even signalling in interview, that I will not be that kind of person. That I'm comfortable setting boundaries and comfortable with challenging people who over-work.

Adverblessly 3y ago

To quote from the fine article in Deuteronomy, it is written: “Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your manservant, or your maidservant, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you.” I.e. you are already not supposed to do any form of work on Shabbat just based on the existing commandments. Naturally that includes work via email or IM.

gumby 3y ago

> A commandment that one shall not view one's work e-mail, nor one's Teams, nor one's Slack ... Religion could be useful if it could simply ban shitty software like those examples.

Tao3300 3y ago
Then a few millenia from now, scholars will be debating whether or not e-mail, Teams, and Slack were accurately translated into Jovian Esperanto or whatever the language of the day is.
- gumby 3y ago
  Turns out hexapodia was the key insight all along!
coffeefirst 3y ago
This is a great idea. I'm pretty sure had mobile phones existed in the Mediterranean during the Achaemenid era, the idea of what kind of notifications and algorithms are kosher would have made it into the Torah.
- gumby 3y ago
  > I'm pretty sure had mobile phones existed in the Mediterranean during the Achaemenid era... Isn't that how the angels talked with the gods?

tomjen3 3y ago

For some people yes. For others, like me, being able to see that there is no disaters waiting can be nice. I have no issue leaving work til monday, but its nice to know I don't have to start monday with a looming disaster.