4 ms·

Why is the best birth control in the world so one-sided?

angersock 15y ago
Because men clearly are not as invested in the possible rearing of a child. Clearly. (seriously: making a kid should be && not || )
- dfc 15y ago
  Thank you. I was a little surprised that my comment got downvoted so much. Maybe this is due to the low percentage of female HNers? Its as if most people think that the pill would have been as revolutionary if it were for men instead of women.
  - angersock 15y ago
    Erm, I think there may have been a bit of a misunderstanding in my attempt at some dry humor. :( I intended to imply disagreement with your claim, mostly due to the one-sided nature of it (as my parent reply suggested). I imagine the downvotes are due to the fact that your phrasing seems to imply that the male should have no say in the matter. It's not that women should not have control over the process (perhaps even most of it), but that both parties need to have the ability to say, finally and without being overruled, "no this will not result in a child." That was the purpose of my comment, it should be a (she->wantsChild() && he->wantsChild()) makeChild(); not (she->wantsChild() || he->wantsChild()) makeChild(); sort of deal. EDIT: "Its as if most people think that the pill would have been as revolutionary if it were for men instead of women." I think you've hit it right on the head here, though. The advent of the pill allowed for equality of sexes in the manner suggested above. Had it been for men, I don't think it would've changed much at all. However, now that that is the case, we've kind of got a situation where women can choose to have relations without getting pregnant regardless of what their partner is doing, whereas for men the options are both limited and uncomfortable. A woman on the pill can have sex without protection (though there are obvious caveats, of course, know/trust your partner, etc. etc.) and still be assured of results, whereas for a man he pretty much has to either be wearing a condom (uncomfortable) or have had a vasectomy. This would be another round of equalization, better for everyone.
    - dfc 15y ago
      Thank you for the clarification and taking the time to respond. I did not mean to imply that men should not have a say in the matter. I think I might have placed too much emphasis and an overly broad definition of "best." My point was that given the biological constraints females ultimately are the most impacted by pregnancy. As a male I definitely value improvements for male birth control. However from a societal point of view I think the best birth control is one that is either controlled by women or is verifiable by women. Since you are being so helpful and I seem to be so hard-headed/clueless on this one. What do you think the general disagreement is with my "best neccesarily implies one or the other comment."?
      - msbarnett 15y ago
        With no reasoning given it's not a particularly valuable post in terms of contribution to the conversation, and it forces people to speculate about why you're declaring it to be "the best". There are any number of unflattering possibilities, which probably accounts for no small measure of the downvotes.
        dfc 15y ago
        I think you are confused about the post I was referring to: "Um, "best" neccesarily implies a "one or the other" proposition." How can best be interpreted to mean anything other than a one or the other proposition.
        msbarnett 15y ago
        > I think you are confused about the post I was referring to: Whoops. > How can best be interpreted to mean anything other than a one or the other proposition. (Simplified) You said: I think the best thing is X (vs Y). He said: I disagree that this is an either-or proposition. You said: Um, "best" neccesarily implies a "one or the other" proposition He was never confused about the meaning of "best", he just disagreed that it applied. You missed his point by a country mile, and got downvoted accordingly.
    - 15y ago
- roguecoder 15y ago
  This will also let us stop hearing "men's rights activists" whine about child support. Didn't want to pay child support? Should have gotten the shot!
  - ataggart 15y ago
    Tell that to the guys who are provably not the biological father, but are still forced by the courts to pay child support.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - roguecoder 15y ago
      Apparently I am excessively optimistic. If a dude acts as a father to the child and then wants to walk away with no responsibility, he's an asshole regardless of DNA and I have no sympathy. Fatherhood doesn't just stop, even if it turns out to be some other guy's sperm. The kid doesn't care about genetics. All the kid knows is that his dad didn't care enough to stay in his life and doesn't want to take care of him. I do think it is unfair, in a "life isn't fair" way not a "they shouldn't have to pay" way, when the child was the accidental product and the father is on the hook. It is still the best thing for the kid to be supported, but I think it is awesome that there is technology that can keep the situation from ever coming up in the first place.

Because men clearly are not as invested in the possible rearing of a child. Clearly. (seriously: making a kid should be && not || )

dfc 15y ago
Thank you. I was a little surprised that my comment got downvoted so much. Maybe this is due to the low percentage of female HNers? Its as if most people think that the pill would have been as revolutionary if it were for men instead of women.
- angersock 15y ago
  Erm, I think there may have been a bit of a misunderstanding in my attempt at some dry humor. :( I intended to imply disagreement with your claim, mostly due to the one-sided nature of it (as my parent reply suggested). I imagine the downvotes are due to the fact that your phrasing seems to imply that the male should have no say in the matter. It's not that women should not have control over the process (perhaps even most of it), but that both parties need to have the ability to say, finally and without being overruled, "no this will not result in a child." That was the purpose of my comment, it should be a (she->wantsChild() && he->wantsChild()) makeChild(); not (she->wantsChild() || he->wantsChild()) makeChild(); sort of deal. EDIT: "Its as if most people think that the pill would have been as revolutionary if it were for men instead of women." I think you've hit it right on the head here, though. The advent of the pill allowed for equality of sexes in the manner suggested above. Had it been for men, I don't think it would've changed much at all. However, now that that is the case, we've kind of got a situation where women can choose to have relations without getting pregnant regardless of what their partner is doing, whereas for men the options are both limited and uncomfortable. A woman on the pill can have sex without protection (though there are obvious caveats, of course, know/trust your partner, etc. etc.) and still be assured of results, whereas for a man he pretty much has to either be wearing a condom (uncomfortable) or have had a vasectomy. This would be another round of equalization, better for everyone.
  - dfc 15y ago
    Thank you for the clarification and taking the time to respond. I did not mean to imply that men should not have a say in the matter. I think I might have placed too much emphasis and an overly broad definition of "best." My point was that given the biological constraints females ultimately are the most impacted by pregnancy. As a male I definitely value improvements for male birth control. However from a societal point of view I think the best birth control is one that is either controlled by women or is verifiable by women. Since you are being so helpful and I seem to be so hard-headed/clueless on this one. What do you think the general disagreement is with my "best neccesarily implies one or the other comment."?
    - msbarnett 15y ago
      With no reasoning given it's not a particularly valuable post in terms of contribution to the conversation, and it forces people to speculate about why you're declaring it to be "the best". There are any number of unflattering possibilities, which probably accounts for no small measure of the downvotes.
      - dfc 15y ago
        I think you are confused about the post I was referring to: "Um, "best" neccesarily implies a "one or the other" proposition." How can best be interpreted to mean anything other than a one or the other proposition.
        msbarnett 15y ago
        > I think you are confused about the post I was referring to: Whoops. > How can best be interpreted to mean anything other than a one or the other proposition. (Simplified) You said: I think the best thing is X (vs Y). He said: I disagree that this is an either-or proposition. You said: Um, "best" neccesarily implies a "one or the other" proposition He was never confused about the meaning of "best", he just disagreed that it applied. You missed his point by a country mile, and got downvoted accordingly.
  - 15y ago
roguecoder 15y ago
This will also let us stop hearing "men's rights activists" whine about child support. Didn't want to pay child support? Should have gotten the shot!
- ataggart 15y ago
  Tell that to the guys who are provably not the biological father, but are still forced by the courts to pay child support.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - roguecoder 15y ago
    Apparently I am excessively optimistic. If a dude acts as a father to the child and then wants to walk away with no responsibility, he's an asshole regardless of DNA and I have no sympathy. Fatherhood doesn't just stop, even if it turns out to be some other guy's sperm. The kid doesn't care about genetics. All the kid knows is that his dad didn't care enough to stay in his life and doesn't want to take care of him. I do think it is unfair, in a "life isn't fair" way not a "they shouldn't have to pay" way, when the child was the accidental product and the father is on the hook. It is still the best thing for the kid to be supported, but I think it is awesome that there is technology that can keep the situation from ever coming up in the first place.