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People really need to stop using "I'm X, and I therefore I know". No. You're just as likely, maybe even more, of being politically invested. "I'm American so I

People really need to stop using "I'm X, and I therefore I know". No. You're just as likely, maybe even more, of being politically invested. "I'm American so I know this Democrat/Republican is a freckin liar!" makes just as little sense.

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
Note well what I wrote: >> I'm Greek and I watched the events of the disastrous Greek delegation to Europe unfold from abroad, the UK where I'm an immigrant. I don't know better because I'm Greek. I paid attention because I'm Greek. But, also: native language, better grasp of context. Don't understimate that. Yes, I have a better chance to know better than anyone who isn't Greek and that's what it is. Finally, I'm a leftie. I am politically invested: on his side. But even so, Varoufakis is terrible and he has pissed off everyone to the left and to the right. It takes a special kind of idiot to do that.
- staunton 3y ago
  It's amazing to have people on such a forum who can give some insights. Could you perhaps write a longer response outlining how you see what happened there? How he pissed off everyone? Was it his policies? Was it how he communicated them? Was it both? For a while, is seemed as though the Greek government was going to go through with it. I don't have the expertise or context to judge if they should have or not, or if they even really could have tried in the first place. It just seems that the crisis was canned and is simmering now to see another day...
  - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
    The following is my recollection so I might get the order or some other details wrong. Please feel free to check me. There's just too much trying to come out so I'm trying to keep it as short as possible. Briefly, then. In 2015, Syriza, a left-wing party, won the Greek parliamentary elections on a platform rejecting the austerity measures that had been imposed as bailout conditions. Greece was in the throes of the crisis that started in 2009, and had already been bailed out twice by the Troika: the International Monetary Fund (IMF), European Central Bank (ECB) and the Eurogroup. The new prime minister Alexis Tsipras appointed Varoufakis as the minister of finance. Soon after the second bailout from the Troika expired without any agreement about a third one. There was a run on the banks and capital controls were put in place, a great humiliation for Tsipras and a loss of trust to his party. A Greek delegation then went to meet the Eurogroup in Brussels to discuss the conditions of a possible third extension. Varoufakis had just completed a "whiste-stop tour" of European capitals trying to drum up support for his arguments, that Greece should be granted debt relief with a loosening of the austerity measures demanded by the Troika. I remember interviews he was giving at the time, where he claimed that if Greece left the Eurozone the next day that we'd be "holding all the cards" and therefore could give the Europeans the finger. I believe there was also some rhetoric about playing chicken with Angela Merkel but maybe that didn't come from Varoufakis himself, I can't remember. I have a memory of Tsipras sitting across the table from Merkel, Nicolá Sarkozy and others, whom I don't remember- possibly Christine Lagarde, of the IMF, Mario Draghi, of the ECB, Wolfgang Schauble, the German chancellor and the darling of all the Greeks at the time (I'm being sarcastic, everyone hated his guts) and who knows what else. I don't recollect Varoufakis being there. I remember Merkel speaking with a sombre face and saying that the EU didn't want to see Greece leave but that if that's what we wanted to do, they couldn't stop us. And that was that for holding all the cards and giving the finger. I believe it was at that time that a new bailout plan was put on the table. After that -but I'm possibly mixing up the timing and it was before- there was an ill-advised referendum, with a confounding question that was interpreted in the UK press as Grexit/ No Grexit, and in the Greek press as "bailout/ no bailout". The referendum went towards the way that Tsipras and Varoufakis _probably_ wanted it to go (I'm not sure because the question was so confusing) but Tsipras decided to do the opposite anyway and accept the proposed bailout plan. Varoufakis resigned in protest, Tsipras appoitned a new finance minister (Euclid Tsakalotos) and Varoufakis rode into the sunset on his Japanese motorcylce. At least he had the common decency to wear a helmet. Nobody ever wears a bloody helmet in Greece. Most don't even wear seat belts. I guess we're made of sterner stuff. What was Varoufakis plan in case the Europeans didn't agree to his terms? He had a plan. He got some of his old school pals together and they tried to hack into the computers of the Greek tax service. They wanted to implement a system of direct debt exchange between all greek taxpayers, so that the economy could continue to function even if the banks went down. A great plan, but the capability to make it work was another of Varoufakis self-inflating fantasies. What would happen if Greece really left the Eurozone? At the time there were plenty of voices advocating for a Grexit. Joseph Stiglitz was one, another was Wolfgang Schauble, and then there was an unending flow of pundits, talking heads, analysts etc. A few EU finance ministers also didn't so much support it but clamour for it - because they were fed up with the Greek government's games (that's Varoufakis basically). I think the Maltese minister of finance was one. In any case, a Grexit would have been a catastrophe. There are three people around the Mediterranean that have a word for disaster, a particular disaster, such that using the word leaves no doubt of the disaster spoken about. The Palestinians have the Nakba; the Israelis have the Shoah; and the Greeks have the Catastrophe. The latter refers to the disastrous nationalistic spasm that led to the uprooting of the Greek communities from Asia Minor in 1922. A Grexit would have given us a second Catastrophe, perhaps worse than the first. I have no doubt that without the support of the EU our existence as an independent nation would be in danger. Varoufakis liked to think of himself as a hero, most likely, but his brinkmanship put every Greek, every Greek's fortunes and even their lives, in danger. He will never admit this of course, and he probably still sees himself as a saviour. In Greece, very few people still do.
the_biot 3y ago
No, this is somebody who saw their country balancing at the edge of the abyss for months, with this clown constantly trying to tip it the wrong way. Their own home country, where they grew up, which has all their friends/family in it. Can you not understand how that would hit a person much harder than, say, somebody outside of Greece, let alone the EU? How much more invested in the welfare of this country they must be? A little empathy goes a long way here.
- elktown 3y ago
  Pretty much comments all in these threads just says vague statements without any specifics, for me that's a red flag bias. I'm sure his supporters of that time didn't see him as unemphatic, and certainly I'm sure he himself didn't see being anti-austerity was being unemphatic, the opposite rather.
  - the_biot 3y ago
    I was talking about the lack of empathy on your part. It's telling that you didn't understand that.
rewmie 3y ago
> People really need to stop using "I'm X, and I therefore I know". No. Are you really trying to lecture those who experienced a government's disastrous term first-hand that they should stop claiming they experienced s government's disastrous term first-hand? What next? Are you going to lecture those who lived through it on what it was like to actually live through it?
- mempko 3y ago
  OP said they are Greek, they didn't say they lived in Greece.
  - rewmie 3y ago
    > OP said they are Greek, they didn't say they lived in Greece. I said that OP experienced a government's disastrous term first-hand, not that he lived in Greece. Plenty of emigrants experience their home's political decisions first-hand even if their fiscal address is in any other country. I'm sure you already stumbled upon protests against government's organized by expats living abroad.
wkat4242 3y ago
I think when people are saying "I'm Greek but ..." they mean that they think this despite their self interest. People don't really have ideals anymore these days but just vote and do what's best for their own interests. I applaud it when someone does stick by their ideals. Even though in this case I don't agree, like I wrote I think the EU was too harsh on Greece. This problem was caused by all of us together. And no I'm not Greek myself :)
mayd 3y ago
Someone who is a Greek expat and pays attention to current events in Greece is more likely to be better informed than you (a non-Greek) simply because they know the history Greece better than you, and most importantly, they know the Greek language, which gives them access to more information from Greek language news sources, Greek language social media, and their Greek relatives back home. I find the English language media, provide very little coverage of countries where the language is not English. As a news junkie, I would love to be able to follow what is happening in places like the Balkans, Europe, etc; but I can't because I can't read them in their native languages.
- the_biot 3y ago
  Check out The Local. Local news in 9 European countries, in English: https://www.thelocal.it/ https://www.thelocal.it/

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago

Note well what I wrote: >> I'm Greek and I watched the events of the disastrous Greek delegation to Europe unfold from abroad, the UK where I'm an immigrant. I don't know better because I'm Greek. I paid attention because I'm Greek. But, also: native language, better grasp of context. Don't understimate that. Yes, I have a better chance to know better than anyone who isn't Greek and that's what it is. Finally, I'm a leftie. I am politically invested: on his side. But even so, Varoufakis is terrible and he has pissed off everyone to the left and to the right. It takes a special kind of idiot to do that.

staunton 3y ago
It's amazing to have people on such a forum who can give some insights. Could you perhaps write a longer response outlining how you see what happened there? How he pissed off everyone? Was it his policies? Was it how he communicated them? Was it both? For a while, is seemed as though the Greek government was going to go through with it. I don't have the expertise or context to judge if they should have or not, or if they even really could have tried in the first place. It just seems that the crisis was canned and is simmering now to see another day...
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  The following is my recollection so I might get the order or some other details wrong. Please feel free to check me. There's just too much trying to come out so I'm trying to keep it as short as possible. Briefly, then. In 2015, Syriza, a left-wing party, won the Greek parliamentary elections on a platform rejecting the austerity measures that had been imposed as bailout conditions. Greece was in the throes of the crisis that started in 2009, and had already been bailed out twice by the Troika: the International Monetary Fund (IMF), European Central Bank (ECB) and the Eurogroup. The new prime minister Alexis Tsipras appointed Varoufakis as the minister of finance. Soon after the second bailout from the Troika expired without any agreement about a third one. There was a run on the banks and capital controls were put in place, a great humiliation for Tsipras and a loss of trust to his party. A Greek delegation then went to meet the Eurogroup in Brussels to discuss the conditions of a possible third extension. Varoufakis had just completed a "whiste-stop tour" of European capitals trying to drum up support for his arguments, that Greece should be granted debt relief with a loosening of the austerity measures demanded by the Troika. I remember interviews he was giving at the time, where he claimed that if Greece left the Eurozone the next day that we'd be "holding all the cards" and therefore could give the Europeans the finger. I believe there was also some rhetoric about playing chicken with Angela Merkel but maybe that didn't come from Varoufakis himself, I can't remember. I have a memory of Tsipras sitting across the table from Merkel, Nicolá Sarkozy and others, whom I don't remember- possibly Christine Lagarde, of the IMF, Mario Draghi, of the ECB, Wolfgang Schauble, the German chancellor and the darling of all the Greeks at the time (I'm being sarcastic, everyone hated his guts) and who knows what else. I don't recollect Varoufakis being there. I remember Merkel speaking with a sombre face and saying that the EU didn't want to see Greece leave but that if that's what we wanted to do, they couldn't stop us. And that was that for holding all the cards and giving the finger. I believe it was at that time that a new bailout plan was put on the table. After that -but I'm possibly mixing up the timing and it was before- there was an ill-advised referendum, with a confounding question that was interpreted in the UK press as Grexit/ No Grexit, and in the Greek press as "bailout/ no bailout". The referendum went towards the way that Tsipras and Varoufakis _probably_ wanted it to go (I'm not sure because the question was so confusing) but Tsipras decided to do the opposite anyway and accept the proposed bailout plan. Varoufakis resigned in protest, Tsipras appoitned a new finance minister (Euclid Tsakalotos) and Varoufakis rode into the sunset on his Japanese motorcylce. At least he had the common decency to wear a helmet. Nobody ever wears a bloody helmet in Greece. Most don't even wear seat belts. I guess we're made of sterner stuff. What was Varoufakis plan in case the Europeans didn't agree to his terms? He had a plan. He got some of his old school pals together and they tried to hack into the computers of the Greek tax service. They wanted to implement a system of direct debt exchange between all greek taxpayers, so that the economy could continue to function even if the banks went down. A great plan, but the capability to make it work was another of Varoufakis self-inflating fantasies. What would happen if Greece really left the Eurozone? At the time there were plenty of voices advocating for a Grexit. Joseph Stiglitz was one, another was Wolfgang Schauble, and then there was an unending flow of pundits, talking heads, analysts etc. A few EU finance ministers also didn't so much support it but clamour for it - because they were fed up with the Greek government's games (that's Varoufakis basically). I think the Maltese minister of finance was one. In any case, a Grexit would have been a catastrophe. There are three people around the Mediterranean that have a word for disaster, a particular disaster, such that using the word leaves no doubt of the disaster spoken about. The Palestinians have the Nakba; the Israelis have the Shoah; and the Greeks have the Catastrophe. The latter refers to the disastrous nationalistic spasm that led to the uprooting of the Greek communities from Asia Minor in 1922. A Grexit would have given us a second Catastrophe, perhaps worse than the first. I have no doubt that without the support of the EU our existence as an independent nation would be in danger. Varoufakis liked to think of himself as a hero, most likely, but his brinkmanship put every Greek, every Greek's fortunes and even their lives, in danger. He will never admit this of course, and he probably still sees himself as a saviour. In Greece, very few people still do.

the_biot 3y ago

No, this is somebody who saw their country balancing at the edge of the abyss for months, with this clown constantly trying to tip it the wrong way. Their own home country, where they grew up, which has all their friends/family in it. Can you not understand how that would hit a person much harder than, say, somebody outside of Greece, let alone the EU? How much more invested in the welfare of this country they must be? A little empathy goes a long way here.

elktown 3y ago
Pretty much comments all in these threads just says vague statements without any specifics, for me that's a red flag bias. I'm sure his supporters of that time didn't see him as unemphatic, and certainly I'm sure he himself didn't see being anti-austerity was being unemphatic, the opposite rather.
- the_biot 3y ago
  I was talking about the lack of empathy on your part. It's telling that you didn't understand that.

rewmie 3y ago

> People really need to stop using "I'm X, and I therefore I know". No. Are you really trying to lecture those who experienced a government's disastrous term first-hand that they should stop claiming they experienced s government's disastrous term first-hand? What next? Are you going to lecture those who lived through it on what it was like to actually live through it?

mempko 3y ago
OP said they are Greek, they didn't say they lived in Greece.
- rewmie 3y ago
  > OP said they are Greek, they didn't say they lived in Greece. I said that OP experienced a government's disastrous term first-hand, not that he lived in Greece. Plenty of emigrants experience their home's political decisions first-hand even if their fiscal address is in any other country. I'm sure you already stumbled upon protests against government's organized by expats living abroad.

wkat4242 3y ago

I think when people are saying "I'm Greek but ..." they mean that they think this despite their self interest. People don't really have ideals anymore these days but just vote and do what's best for their own interests. I applaud it when someone does stick by their ideals. Even though in this case I don't agree, like I wrote I think the EU was too harsh on Greece. This problem was caused by all of us together. And no I'm not Greek myself :)

mayd 3y ago

Someone who is a Greek expat and pays attention to current events in Greece is more likely to be better informed than you (a non-Greek) simply because they know the history Greece better than you, and most importantly, they know the Greek language, which gives them access to more information from Greek language news sources, Greek language social media, and their Greek relatives back home. I find the English language media, provide very little coverage of countries where the language is not English. As a news junkie, I would love to be able to follow what is happening in places like the Balkans, Europe, etc; but I can't because I can't read them in their native languages.

the_biot 3y ago
Check out The Local. Local news in 9 European countries, in English: https://www.thelocal.it/ https://www.thelocal.it/