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> The fun part is Ops wants us engineers to help more, but they don't even trust (and some don't know how to run) my Terraform or CloudFormation scripts (I let

> The fun part is Ops wants us engineers to help more, but they don't even trust (and some don't know how to run) my Terraform or CloudFormation scripts (I let them choose which), so they just read the tf/yaml and click AWS buttons manually. Often making lots of mistakes. Yeahnah, you're part of the problem. If you've not documented it properly, and more importantly, if the team are weary of prodfucking TF/CF scripts, there is a culture problem. You both need to understand how that works, if they don't have enough time, then you're understaffed, that needs to be fixed. I worked at place that was going through a really painful ops->devops->dev oncall transition. Ops still had a shit ton of power, but nobody included them, and just shouted at them when stuff went red. It took a huge culture shift, and devs sitting in ops and doing a shift or two, to sort it out.

whstl 3y ago
Sorry, but how did you manage to make so many assumptions from that? Everything I need from Ops is already enumerated and specified more than well in tickets (which is required, as is par for course with the sysadmin from hell stereotype), and documented in Markdown files within my app's source code. I generate scripts for them since that's what they WANT and ASKED for several times. They literally want me and other managers to help with DevOps (Heck, I'm even AWS certified), but don't trust me and others to give access. They ask for scripts and I comply to save their time. How am I on the hook if they want me to create scripts, but some of the new hires don't know how to use Terraform/CloudFormation? > "there is a culture problem. You both need to understand how that works, if they don't have enough time, then you're understaffed, that needs to be fixed." The culture problem is Ops wanting to do everything and not trusting. If they don't want to "prodfuck", just review every script. Or perhaps test them in the staging AWS account that I pay for with my own money. Or just stop asking me to make infrastructure as code. Or suggest a fourth option instead of wasting my time and being disrespectful. I can't change other people's behavior. I can only change mine. If they are understaffed I can help, or they can hire more. Wasting my time and making me do pointless work is not the answer.
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  > I can't change other people's behavior. I can only change mine. Ah my friend, you totally can change other people's behaviour. go on. hug an ops, sit next to them and work with them. show them a bit of love and make them feel part of the team. Think about it from their view, why don't they trust your scripts? Why dont they feel empowered to spin up a staging area? is it a skills gap? fear? or do they not feel confident enough to ask. It sounds like solving their problem will also solve yours....
  - whstl 3y ago
    Skills gap from a chunk of the team, lack of time, lack of trust in developers, not accepting help when offered, not accepting that developers have the best interest of the company in mind, not accepting qualification of developers. I can only offer help, do what they ask and try to make their life as easy as possible... I can't hug people via Jira tickets. Yeah, they're that isolated.

whstl 3y ago

Sorry, but how did you manage to make so many assumptions from that? Everything I need from Ops is already enumerated and specified more than well in tickets (which is required, as is par for course with the sysadmin from hell stereotype), and documented in Markdown files within my app's source code. I generate scripts for them since that's what they WANT and ASKED for several times. They literally want me and other managers to help with DevOps (Heck, I'm even AWS certified), but don't trust me and others to give access. They ask for scripts and I comply to save their time. How am I on the hook if they want me to create scripts, but some of the new hires don't know how to use Terraform/CloudFormation? > "there is a culture problem. You both need to understand how that works, if they don't have enough time, then you're understaffed, that needs to be fixed." The culture problem is Ops wanting to do everything and not trusting. If they don't want to "prodfuck", just review every script. Or perhaps test them in the staging AWS account that I pay for with my own money. Or just stop asking me to make infrastructure as code. Or suggest a fourth option instead of wasting my time and being disrespectful. I can't change other people's behavior. I can only change mine. If they are understaffed I can help, or they can hire more. Wasting my time and making me do pointless work is not the answer.

KaiserPro 3y ago
> I can't change other people's behavior. I can only change mine. Ah my friend, you totally can change other people's behaviour. go on. hug an ops, sit next to them and work with them. show them a bit of love and make them feel part of the team. Think about it from their view, why don't they trust your scripts? Why dont they feel empowered to spin up a staging area? is it a skills gap? fear? or do they not feel confident enough to ask. It sounds like solving their problem will also solve yours....
- whstl 3y ago
  Skills gap from a chunk of the team, lack of time, lack of trust in developers, not accepting help when offered, not accepting that developers have the best interest of the company in mind, not accepting qualification of developers. I can only offer help, do what they ask and try to make their life as easy as possible... I can't hug people via Jira tickets. Yeah, they're that isolated.