So in other words, you made silos. More throwing things over the wall and having it be someone else's problem. That's fundamentally the antithesis of DevOps.

So in other words, you made silos. More throwing things over the wall and having it be someone else's problem. That's fundamentally the antithesis of DevOps. People do not fix the pain they don't see, and managers doubly so. By shifting operations off to a "devops" team, you just end up with developer teams that don't know about, and don't care to fix, the things that make it painful to deploy or run their code in production. Those that have to deal with the pain rarely have any political leverage they need to even enact change. There's zero motivation for either the developers writing the software _or their management_ to fix it. Dev manager incentives are purely aligned with getting code and features built. To give a nice real world example, building out new regions for AWS services used to be a pain in the arse (since I left I hear some major top down initiatives have fixed that). The service team I worked for, almost doubly so painful for region build. Standing up an entire region was something like ~50 days of engineering time. Not because it was especially hard, per se, but because the ops team always had to wade through piles of refactored shit that introduced new circular dependencies, or wasn't documented, or broke other aspects of any automation we could produce. (I remember one DynamoDB schema overhaul, where we did a complicated migration. Next region build, service components wouldn't stand up because we'd used the automation to create the new table schemas that had replaced the old table schema entries, but the service code still expected to see the old schemas in the right format. It took several months to get the dev manager to agree to engineers spending time cleaning up old schema references from their code base.) The dev manager incentives were not aligned with making it easy. It wasn't their engineering resources being consumed, and they had features they needed to ship. The developers never changed the way they worked because even though they were told the issues (and even though they were, virtually to a person, great people to work with, considerate etc.), they never experienced the pain so they never thought about those consequences of what they were doing when they were doing it. Ops manager never had any leverage, because every single time we managed to get a region launched in time as to not be an issue, and every time things were down to the wire it was clearly as a result of the ops team not building the right automation :eyeroll:, rather than that the dev teams were making some kind of brand new nightmare each time. It wasn't until the ops team had lost enough members of staff to that BS, and region build shifted on to the developers themselves, that suddenly most of the problems went away, never to appear again. They were aware and conscious of the pain certain decisions would cause because they had felt it themselves, and they made sure not to introduce more pain. DevOps is about making sure incentives and politics align to make things overall better. Shoving it in to a silo is literally the complete opposite.