6 ms·

Tech Culture: More Legos and Less Punch Buggy

36 points by tswicegood 15y ago

Tichy 15y ago
Fair enough, although I'd like to speak up and say that a world in which nobody is allowed to say anything that could hurt anybody's feelings wouldn't be a very interesting place to live in (for example sometimes the truth hurts). I don't want to defend sexist jokes or whatever is the problem, I just don't like the emotion argument, because it is too easy to manipulate people using it.
- MartinCron 15y ago
  There's a huge difference between a world in which nobody is allowed to say anything that could hurt anybody's feelings and a professional workplace where people are not systematically alienated for not being part of the dominant group. Be as edgy and offensive as you want, on your own time, thanks.
  - prodigal_erik 15y ago
    There isn't a practical difference between those when there's no consensus about what's alienating. Offices must be bland, because society has decided that making brittle people unemployable would be a worse thing to do. I actually sort of agree with the logic, while disliking the forced choice.
    - MartinCron 15y ago
      There isn't a practical difference between those when there's no consensus about what's alienating It seems that the consensus that reasonable people are closing in on is that once someone takes the effort to tell you something is alienating, it probably is, and that saying "lighten up" or "grow a thick skin" is probably the wrong response. Also, "brittle people", really? Most people would be seen as brittle if the right pressure were applied to them.
      - Tichy 15y ago
        I think you are talking about a different thing.
      - prodigal_erik 15y ago
        Yeah, I should have put that better, I think I got it from Dilbert. I was alluding to the outliers, the people who are most sensitive to small and surprising provocations, because that's where every employer must set the bar regarding what's acceptable.
angersock 15y ago
The lego analogy is good, the Punch Buggy is not. Here's the thing: words (as opposed to physical violence) are very curious insofar as they can only hurt you as much as you let them. I'd suggest that it'd be better to try and cultivate thick skins, and to publicly shame or ignore people who are acting like idiots until they knock it off. Racism, sexism, genderism (is that even the right word?), and agism are all stupid biases, and by treating them like a valid threat instead of a silly self-limiting arbitrary preference we are doing well by no one.
- DanBC 15y ago
  > Here's the thing: words (as opposed to physical violence) are very curious insofar as they can only hurt you as much as you let them. What happens when Bob, (who was hospitalised for 6 weeks by a gang who beat him while shouting racist abuse at him[1]) hears someone using that same racist abuse? > Racism, sexism, genderism (is that even the right word?), and agism are all stupid biases, and by treating them like a valid threat instead of a silly self-limiting arbitrary preference we are doing well by no one. I really don't understand the self-limiting argument. It's made very often. Maybe I'm being a bit thick but doesn't history prove it wrong? Women (in the UK) were openly paid less than men until laws were passed. That didn't self-limit. It was common (in the UK; after WW2) for people letting rooms to have signs saying "No Blacks No Irish". That didn't self-limit.
  - tomjen3 15y ago
    How is the feeling Bob has any different from the same guy getting beaten the same way by a gang in a particular brand of car whenever he sees that car? Do you want to ban that car brand too?
    - DanBC 15y ago
      I don't want to ban anything, not even words. Some words come from hate, and are used by hateful people, and the recipients of those words will perceive that hate, and it's not their problem of having thin-skin. (btw: I am not going to post anymore about this. Kind regards.)
tomjen3 15y ago
The problem with the pedophile argument is that being called a bitch or treated like a secretary cannot result in you ending in jail. After this can we please not post anymore racist/sexist/*ist stuff? I don't know about you, but I come here for the news about tech and the super insightfull comments and these stories seem a waste of brain power.
- npc 15y ago
  > After this can we please not post anymore racist/sexist/*ist stuff? How about we stop talking about racism and sexism when there's no more racism and sexism? And how is talking about a problem that effects people negatively a "waste of brain power"?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- MartinCron 15y ago
  After this can we please not post anymore racist/sexist/ist stuff?* Looking at the number and frequency of high-voted posts, it seems like there is a pent-up demand for this kind of conversation. I'm finding myself learning more about something I care deeply about. That's the whole reason I come here.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
If you’ve not been a minority in a group before (especially in a career-type setting), then it is hard to even imagine what that’s like. First of all, lets call this argument out for what it is - it's basically an appeal to authority. It's an implicit claim that if you aren't a member of a specific authoritative group, you are unable to reason about a topic. And it's a logical fallacy. Second of all, it isn't even true. I've been a minority in a career-type setting ever since leaving academia and I've never had the reactions that the author's whiny male friend did. People mock me due to my unusual physical characteristics (e.g., I get sunburned), I mock them for being < 5' tall, then we get lunch. It's no big deal because I choose to focus on the code, relax and roll with it. But hey, I'm sure my experience will be dismissed because I'm not the right type of minority in a career setting.
- liamcampbell 15y ago
  "It's no big deal because I choose to focus on the code, relax and roll with it." It's cool that you can take the prejudice you are dealt, but some people surely get worse than you. I'm not dismissing your experience, I'm just pointing out that it is merely YOUR experience. You (like everyone) can't speak for all minority groups.
- MartinCron 15y ago
  I think you're kind of proving the author's point. You don't get hurt in those scenarios, therefore you think nobody does or nobody should. Not everyone can be, or even should be, exactly the same.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    I'm not disputing the author's main point. I'm pointing out a logical fallacy in their post.
    - MartinCron 15y ago
      It's only a logical fallacy if you stretch it too far. The original statement was that "it's hard to know what something's like if you haven't experienced it" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, along the lines of "you haven't had salted caramel ice cream? You don't know what you're missing!" You distorted that into "unless you are a member of the group, it's impossible for you to understand" which I guess would be a logical fallacy, but that's a different message altogether.
vasco 15y ago
I've been mocked plenty for a bunch of reasons and I'm sure everyone has too. When I was a kid I ran up to my mom and said "Hey mom, that kid was mean to me." and she would tell me "Just ignore him." and make me go play again. Now I'm a grown up and I don't need to go to my mom everytime someone makes fun of me or looks at me wierd. And I sure don't go whinning to the internet.

36 points by tswicegood 15y ago

Tichy 15y ago

Fair enough, although I'd like to speak up and say that a world in which nobody is allowed to say anything that could hurt anybody's feelings wouldn't be a very interesting place to live in (for example sometimes the truth hurts). I don't want to defend sexist jokes or whatever is the problem, I just don't like the emotion argument, because it is too easy to manipulate people using it.

MartinCron 15y ago
There's a huge difference between a world in which nobody is allowed to say anything that could hurt anybody's feelings and a professional workplace where people are not systematically alienated for not being part of the dominant group. Be as edgy and offensive as you want, on your own time, thanks.
- prodigal_erik 15y ago
  There isn't a practical difference between those when there's no consensus about what's alienating. Offices must be bland, because society has decided that making brittle people unemployable would be a worse thing to do. I actually sort of agree with the logic, while disliking the forced choice.
  - MartinCron 15y ago
    There isn't a practical difference between those when there's no consensus about what's alienating It seems that the consensus that reasonable people are closing in on is that once someone takes the effort to tell you something is alienating, it probably is, and that saying "lighten up" or "grow a thick skin" is probably the wrong response. Also, "brittle people", really? Most people would be seen as brittle if the right pressure were applied to them.
    - Tichy 15y ago
      I think you are talking about a different thing.
    - prodigal_erik 15y ago
      Yeah, I should have put that better, I think I got it from Dilbert. I was alluding to the outliers, the people who are most sensitive to small and surprising provocations, because that's where every employer must set the bar regarding what's acceptable.

angersock 15y ago

The lego analogy is good, the Punch Buggy is not. Here's the thing: words (as opposed to physical violence) are very curious insofar as they can only hurt you as much as you let them. I'd suggest that it'd be better to try and cultivate thick skins, and to publicly shame or ignore people who are acting like idiots until they knock it off. Racism, sexism, genderism (is that even the right word?), and agism are all stupid biases, and by treating them like a valid threat instead of a silly self-limiting arbitrary preference we are doing well by no one.

DanBC 15y ago
> Here's the thing: words (as opposed to physical violence) are very curious insofar as they can only hurt you as much as you let them. What happens when Bob, (who was hospitalised for 6 weeks by a gang who beat him while shouting racist abuse at him[1]) hears someone using that same racist abuse? > Racism, sexism, genderism (is that even the right word?), and agism are all stupid biases, and by treating them like a valid threat instead of a silly self-limiting arbitrary preference we are doing well by no one. I really don't understand the self-limiting argument. It's made very often. Maybe I'm being a bit thick but doesn't history prove it wrong? Women (in the UK) were openly paid less than men until laws were passed. That didn't self-limit. It was common (in the UK; after WW2) for people letting rooms to have signs saying "No Blacks No Irish". That didn't self-limit.
- tomjen3 15y ago
  How is the feeling Bob has any different from the same guy getting beaten the same way by a gang in a particular brand of car whenever he sees that car? Do you want to ban that car brand too?
  - DanBC 15y ago
    I don't want to ban anything, not even words. Some words come from hate, and are used by hateful people, and the recipients of those words will perceive that hate, and it's not their problem of having thin-skin. (btw: I am not going to post anymore about this. Kind regards.)

tomjen3 15y ago

The problem with the pedophile argument is that being called a bitch or treated like a secretary cannot result in you ending in jail. After this can we please not post anymore racist/sexist/*ist stuff? I don't know about you, but I come here for the news about tech and the super insightfull comments and these stories seem a waste of brain power.

npc 15y ago
> After this can we please not post anymore racist/sexist/*ist stuff? How about we stop talking about racism and sexism when there's no more racism and sexism? And how is talking about a problem that effects people negatively a "waste of brain power"?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
MartinCron 15y ago
After this can we please not post anymore racist/sexist/ist stuff?* Looking at the number and frequency of high-voted posts, it seems like there is a pent-up demand for this kind of conversation. I'm finding myself learning more about something I care deeply about. That's the whole reason I come here.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

If you’ve not been a minority in a group before (especially in a career-type setting), then it is hard to even imagine what that’s like. First of all, lets call this argument out for what it is - it's basically an appeal to authority. It's an implicit claim that if you aren't a member of a specific authoritative group, you are unable to reason about a topic. And it's a logical fallacy. Second of all, it isn't even true. I've been a minority in a career-type setting ever since leaving academia and I've never had the reactions that the author's whiny male friend did. People mock me due to my unusual physical characteristics (e.g., I get sunburned), I mock them for being < 5' tall, then we get lunch. It's no big deal because I choose to focus on the code, relax and roll with it. But hey, I'm sure my experience will be dismissed because I'm not the right type of minority in a career setting.

liamcampbell 15y ago
"It's no big deal because I choose to focus on the code, relax and roll with it." It's cool that you can take the prejudice you are dealt, but some people surely get worse than you. I'm not dismissing your experience, I'm just pointing out that it is merely YOUR experience. You (like everyone) can't speak for all minority groups.
MartinCron 15y ago
I think you're kind of proving the author's point. You don't get hurt in those scenarios, therefore you think nobody does or nobody should. Not everyone can be, or even should be, exactly the same.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  I'm not disputing the author's main point. I'm pointing out a logical fallacy in their post.
  - MartinCron 15y ago
    It's only a logical fallacy if you stretch it too far. The original statement was that "it's hard to know what something's like if you haven't experienced it" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, along the lines of "you haven't had salted caramel ice cream? You don't know what you're missing!" You distorted that into "unless you are a member of the group, it's impossible for you to understand" which I guess would be a logical fallacy, but that's a different message altogether.

vasco 15y ago

I've been mocked plenty for a bunch of reasons and I'm sure everyone has too. When I was a kid I ran up to my mom and said "Hey mom, that kid was mean to me." and she would tell me "Just ignore him." and make me go play again. Now I'm a grown up and I don't need to go to my mom everytime someone makes fun of me or looks at me wierd. And I sure don't go whinning to the internet.