8 ms·

Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Case in point: c

Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Things like that are amazing and I'd never give up. And I'm sure most people wouldn't want to give this up either just because Linux fanboys want to.

smoldesu 3y ago
> Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Circumstantially, yes. I am a KDE user though, on GNOME you do have to install a little app for it.
oynqr 3y ago
With those preconditons, it doesn't even work on Apple devices.
- vesrah 3y ago
  What do you mean? This is what Universal Clipboard does.
  - alphager 3y ago
    Pretty sure you had to configure both devices for it to work.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      No, just sign into both of them with your iCloud account
      - abenga 3y ago
        It obviously uses "a program, a hack, or configuration" (taking these from the original reply), just that they are written and pre-installed by Apple, and work seamlessly.
        askonomm 3y ago
        But from the end-user perspective it doesn't really. Nobody consciously sets the universal clipboard up, it comes as part of the cohesive whole of the Apple ecosystem. That's my point. Whether or not you want to dive deep into nerdland of if it's a program or not is besides the point, because for the end-user none of it matters, and that's why the vertical integration is nice.
        abenga 3y ago
        Probably true. The whole vertical integration does rub me the wrong way though, it's just uncomfortable to have one company own so much of my personal computing infrastructure, especially one that is so unfriendly to "tinkerers" like me.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        Yes because the 10% market share that Apple has in computers is really worrying…
        abenga 3y ago
        If I buy an Apple phone, tablet, and computer, that will be 100% of my computing infra, which is all that matters to me.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        Then don’t buy a device that doesn’t meet your needs? I don’t go shopping in the big and tall store expecting to find something that meets my needs when I am five foot five.
ta8903 3y ago
KDEConnect lets you sync your phone keyboard, even with Windows. And Apple could let you sync your clipboard to non-iOS devices too, they just block arbitrary features unless you buy into their entire ecosystem.
- askonomm 3y ago
  I did mention without installing a program, and without any configuration.
  - abenga 3y ago
    Is the implicit "… not written by the original OS vendor" at the end of your sentence intentional? There is obviously a program and/or configuration, just done by Apple. Nothing precludes building such a system in other systems.
    - askonomm 3y ago
      Yes, the whole discussion is about vertical integration, achieved best so far by Apple. I'm sure it can be done in other systems, but for whatever reason other systems haven't made it as simple and seamless. I wonder why. Could it have something to do with the lack of vertical integration maybe?
tincholio 3y ago
Not only copy/paste, but have notifications shared both ways, use your computer as a phone laptop, use the phone as a trackpad/mouse, and much more. It just works.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
monocasa 3y ago
Why would this be an issue? Under the proposed model, the vendor for phone software can be the same vendor for desktop software.
mschuster91 3y ago
> Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Why? The hardware people at companies like NVIDIA or Apple already have to write detailed documentation for their stuff anyway so that the software people can do their side. Assuming they do a good enough job at writing documentation and testing their hardware, it should not be a problem for Linux developers to write appropriate drivers. Hell there are a very few select people able to write high quality drivers even with zero documentation (see Asahi Linux). The only ones in trouble would be the vendors of crap SoCs who ship extremely buggy hardware and make up for the lack of QA in software quirks instead.
- pca006132 3y ago
  1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > 1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. They can also open source their testing bench code. The only ones who have to be afraid are those who don't care about quality. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" also applies here - I'd really like to be able as a consumer to choose the product that demonstrates the better engineering! > 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. Oh, I'm aware of that, and the consequences of that are becoming more and more dire as electronic waste from defunct companies or unsupported and unsecure devices piles up, together with hacked IoT devices causing mayhem on the wide Internet in botnets. It's high time for that to stop. > 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs. So what? Ordinary PC hardware at its core still conforms to decades old standards that can be used as a fallback. Given a sufficient supply of beers, coffee and pizza, every CS student worth their money can throw up a basic graphical OS that runs on any mainstream (i.e. non-embedded) x86 system. Input, output (video, serial, audio, keyboard, mice, accessories) and storage all have standardized interfaces - the only thing that does not is networking. There is no reason at all to say that the ARM world can't standardize on basic components or at least interfaces. Apple can - their UART implementation, according to rumors, dates back to the early iPod/iPhone days, while Samsung has something like five or six completely different implementation, and Mediatek and all the other SoC vendors run their completely own stuff.
gray_-_wolf 3y ago
> Well that world would suck immensely Maybe. > Case in point But this does not really support your statement no? What you described seems to me SW only functionality no? And if in requires any special HW (BT? I have no idea how it works under the hood), why does it need tight integration? I do not see a technical reason why Android and Windows could not provide the same feature out of the box, despite neither the Google nor Microsoft making the HW.
- slim 3y ago
  the most probable cause is patents
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    Sounds like we clear abuse of patent law. > Non-obvious is a requirement for patent protection that literally means your invention is not obvious to someone who is in the same industry. A new invention needs to be unexpected or surprising and cannot be anticipated by looking at the existing technology or prior art.
lnxg33k1 3y ago
Really your example serves as disproving your point, without the hardware walled garden there could be nothing to prevent apple to distribute the software to copy-paste from-to multiple devices
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Ah just forgot to add to the point, its possible to copy paste from mobile/desktop with kconnect that is open source, its not that bit of a deal that requires special hardware
delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? I am guessing that AirDrop, Sidecar, etc have absolutely nothing to do with hardware-software integration, and have ≥ Layer 3 implementations. KDE Connect and Microsoft My Phone are competitors.
- vanviegen 3y ago
  Exactly. Apple could have made this work across other platforms (Windows, Android, Linux), but chose not to. KDE Connect, for example, runs on quite a few platform, including all popular ones. https://kdeconnect.kde.org/download.html https://kdeconnect.kde.org/download.html
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Why should Apple be forced to write software for competing platforms?
    - delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
      I suppose that loops back to the premise of the linked article (which is IMO absurd).
    - webmobdev 3y ago
      It doesn't - it only needs to support open standards.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        So does that mean Apple can’t release anything until it goes through a standards body?
        hooooopa 3y ago
        Scarface, Apple doesn't love you back.
the_third_wave 3y ago
Yes, that works if I want it to, e.g by running KDE Connect (which works outside of KDE). Works on Linux, Android, Windows and even on Apple-things in case you need to escape the walled garden...
- askonomm 3y ago
  Sounds like it needs a special program and configuration, which is not needed on Apple devices. Also, KDE Connect needs both devices to be in the same network - which is not needed for Apple devices. My phone can be on 5G, and my Mac can be on wifi. Or they don't have to connected to a network at all.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    > Sounds like it needs a special program and configuration, which is not needed on Apple devices How else would it work across different devices? Apple devices can not connect to e.g. Android devices without a 'special program and configuration' nor can they do so with Linux or Windows or whatever other devices. > Also, KDE Connect needs both devices to be in the same network - which is not needed for Apple devices KDE Connect and other similar tools work fine over a VPN which is the preferred solution for such setups. You can choose which VPN you want to use, OpenVPN and Wireguard are two popular choices. Here again that VPN can be used to connect disparate devices - Linux, Windows, Android, Apple-things, whatever. Apple devices only talk to other Apple devices which is far more restrictive. If you are a happy camper in the walled garden then things are good for you. I prefer the freedom of camping in the wild even if that means I may have to build my own fire and cook my own food since it enables me to go where I please without being held back by that wall and without having to pay the ferryman. To each his own I guess?
    - askonomm 3y ago
      > How else would it work across different devices? Apple devices can not connect to e.g. Android devices I was talking about Mac and iPhone having seamless integration - something I have not noticed of any other ecosystem. I have not been able to share clipboards with an android and a PC (Win and Linux) without installing an app, or doing some other hacky things. The integration, while possible, doesn't exist by default. It's not seamless. It doesn't _just work_. > KDE Connect and other similar tools work fine over a VPN I don't want to use a VPN? I want to use my regular home wifi or phone network, like a normal person.
jksk61 3y ago
Literally never needed to copy text from smartphone to pc (or viceversa). At best anyone needs to sync between photos, docs or stuff like that. For that you just need a sync on the cloud like Dropbox, Drive, Box, and so on (also never heard of bluetooth for small files?) moreover, apple's software is generally very buggy.
- phumberdroz 3y ago
  Never typed a 2FA code from the phone to the computer? Just copying them on the iPhone and pasting them on the mac is super convenient.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    On android you can view your sms messages at messages.google.com allowing you to easily copy and paste it
    - askonomm 3y ago
      Yeah, can also view email on both phone and computer since forever ago - this is not even remotely similar to the shared clipboard of an iPhone and Mac, where you don't need to open any links or programs, install anything, configure anything - you just copy on phone/computer and then instantly are able to paste on phone/computer.
      - michaelmrose 3y ago
        Have you ever wanted to copy anything from A->B that wasn't a 2fa text, a password, or a url? I certainly haven't. An android phone out of the box supports syncing tabs and passwords and provides a trivial way to copy 2FA codes with a built in feature.
        askonomm 3y ago
        So your argument is that because the things to copy are few, this feature doesn't matter? Or what? I fail to see how what you say contributes to the discussion of vertical integration in any way.
michaelmrose 3y ago
What is KDE Connect? Which incidentally runs equally well on other desktops and even windows. https://userbase.kde.org/KDEConnect https://userbase.kde.org/KDEConnect Also gsconnect can provide integration with gnome. https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1319/gsconnect/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1319/gsconnect/ KDE Connect is a project that enables all your devices to communicate with each other. Here are a few things KDE Connect can do: Receive your phone notifications on your desktop computer and reply to messages Control music playing on your desktop from your phone Use your phone as a remote control for your desktop Run predefined commands on your PC from connected devices. See the list of example commands for more details. Check your phones battery level from the desktop Ring your phone to help finding it Share files and links between devices Browse your phone from the desktop Control the desktop's volume from the phone Also you can read and reply to messages on your Android phone by navigating to messages.google.com without installing anything Firefox and I presume chrome let you push tabs from one machine to the other or with forefox simply pull up a list of tabs currently open on the other device. Unified remote also gives you a great remote for our multimedia pc. Basically every email service abd chat app has good integration between desktop and phone. Mpd and mafa lets me easily listen to my music Calibre and calibre companion let's me easily sync my books I doubt one person making these things would make them better
- ggreer 3y ago
  KDE Connect requires both devices to be connected to the same network, which means you have to connect your devices to the same VPN if you're on a wifi network with client isolation (most public wifi). If you're away from wifi, you'll have to configure one of the devices to be an access point and join everything else to that device. Apple's clipboard/handoff/continuity automatically works as long as the devices are within wifi/bluetooth range.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    This is a good point and a good reason to propose an improvement to KDE Connect but users point was that integration would be awful if not done by the same party and it seems to my eyes to be pretty good despite one being created by a party with literally a billionth of the resources of the other.

smoldesu 3y ago

> Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Circumstantially, yes. I am a KDE user though, on GNOME you do have to install a little app for it.

oynqr 3y ago

With those preconditons, it doesn't even work on Apple devices.

vesrah 3y ago
What do you mean? This is what Universal Clipboard does.
- alphager 3y ago
  Pretty sure you had to configure both devices for it to work.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    No, just sign into both of them with your iCloud account
    - abenga 3y ago
      It obviously uses "a program, a hack, or configuration" (taking these from the original reply), just that they are written and pre-installed by Apple, and work seamlessly.
      - askonomm 3y ago
        But from the end-user perspective it doesn't really. Nobody consciously sets the universal clipboard up, it comes as part of the cohesive whole of the Apple ecosystem. That's my point. Whether or not you want to dive deep into nerdland of if it's a program or not is besides the point, because for the end-user none of it matters, and that's why the vertical integration is nice.
        abenga 3y ago
        Probably true. The whole vertical integration does rub me the wrong way though, it's just uncomfortable to have one company own so much of my personal computing infrastructure, especially one that is so unfriendly to "tinkerers" like me.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        Yes because the 10% market share that Apple has in computers is really worrying…
        abenga 3y ago
        If I buy an Apple phone, tablet, and computer, that will be 100% of my computing infra, which is all that matters to me.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        Then don’t buy a device that doesn’t meet your needs? I don’t go shopping in the big and tall store expecting to find something that meets my needs when I am five foot five.

ta8903 3y ago

KDEConnect lets you sync your phone keyboard, even with Windows. And Apple could let you sync your clipboard to non-iOS devices too, they just block arbitrary features unless you buy into their entire ecosystem.

askonomm 3y ago
I did mention without installing a program, and without any configuration.
- abenga 3y ago
  Is the implicit "… not written by the original OS vendor" at the end of your sentence intentional? There is obviously a program and/or configuration, just done by Apple. Nothing precludes building such a system in other systems.
  - askonomm 3y ago
    Yes, the whole discussion is about vertical integration, achieved best so far by Apple. I'm sure it can be done in other systems, but for whatever reason other systems haven't made it as simple and seamless. I wonder why. Could it have something to do with the lack of vertical integration maybe?

tincholio 3y ago

Not only copy/paste, but have notifications shared both ways, use your computer as a phone laptop, use the phone as a trackpad/mouse, and much more. It just works.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

monocasa 3y ago

Why would this be an issue? Under the proposed model, the vendor for phone software can be the same vendor for desktop software.

mschuster91 3y ago

> Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Why? The hardware people at companies like NVIDIA or Apple already have to write detailed documentation for their stuff anyway so that the software people can do their side. Assuming they do a good enough job at writing documentation and testing their hardware, it should not be a problem for Linux developers to write appropriate drivers. Hell there are a very few select people able to write high quality drivers even with zero documentation (see Asahi Linux). The only ones in trouble would be the vendors of crap SoCs who ship extremely buggy hardware and make up for the lack of QA in software quirks instead.

pca006132 3y ago
1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > 1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. They can also open source their testing bench code. The only ones who have to be afraid are those who don't care about quality. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" also applies here - I'd really like to be able as a consumer to choose the product that demonstrates the better engineering! > 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. Oh, I'm aware of that, and the consequences of that are becoming more and more dire as electronic waste from defunct companies or unsupported and unsecure devices piles up, together with hacked IoT devices causing mayhem on the wide Internet in botnets. It's high time for that to stop. > 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs. So what? Ordinary PC hardware at its core still conforms to decades old standards that can be used as a fallback. Given a sufficient supply of beers, coffee and pizza, every CS student worth their money can throw up a basic graphical OS that runs on any mainstream (i.e. non-embedded) x86 system. Input, output (video, serial, audio, keyboard, mice, accessories) and storage all have standardized interfaces - the only thing that does not is networking. There is no reason at all to say that the ARM world can't standardize on basic components or at least interfaces. Apple can - their UART implementation, according to rumors, dates back to the early iPod/iPhone days, while Samsung has something like five or six completely different implementation, and Mediatek and all the other SoC vendors run their completely own stuff.

gray_-_wolf 3y ago

> Well that world would suck immensely Maybe. > Case in point But this does not really support your statement no? What you described seems to me SW only functionality no? And if in requires any special HW (BT? I have no idea how it works under the hood), why does it need tight integration? I do not see a technical reason why Android and Windows could not provide the same feature out of the box, despite neither the Google nor Microsoft making the HW.

slim 3y ago
the most probable cause is patents
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Sounds like we clear abuse of patent law. > Non-obvious is a requirement for patent protection that literally means your invention is not obvious to someone who is in the same industry. A new invention needs to be unexpected or surprising and cannot be anticipated by looking at the existing technology or prior art.

lnxg33k1 3y ago

Really your example serves as disproving your point, without the hardware walled garden there could be nothing to prevent apple to distribute the software to copy-paste from-to multiple devices

lnxg33k1 3y ago
Ah just forgot to add to the point, its possible to copy paste from mobile/desktop with kconnect that is open source, its not that bit of a deal that requires special hardware

delta_p_delta_x 3y ago

> Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? I am guessing that AirDrop, Sidecar, etc have absolutely nothing to do with hardware-software integration, and have ≥ Layer 3 implementations. KDE Connect and Microsoft My Phone are competitors.

vanviegen 3y ago
Exactly. Apple could have made this work across other platforms (Windows, Android, Linux), but chose not to. KDE Connect, for example, runs on quite a few platform, including all popular ones. https://kdeconnect.kde.org/download.html https://kdeconnect.kde.org/download.html
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Why should Apple be forced to write software for competing platforms?
  - delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
    I suppose that loops back to the premise of the linked article (which is IMO absurd).
  - webmobdev 3y ago
    It doesn't - it only needs to support open standards.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      So does that mean Apple can’t release anything until it goes through a standards body?
      - hooooopa 3y ago
        Scarface, Apple doesn't love you back.

the_third_wave 3y ago

Yes, that works if I want it to, e.g by running KDE Connect (which works outside of KDE). Works on Linux, Android, Windows and even on Apple-things in case you need to escape the walled garden...

askonomm 3y ago
Sounds like it needs a special program and configuration, which is not needed on Apple devices. Also, KDE Connect needs both devices to be in the same network - which is not needed for Apple devices. My phone can be on 5G, and my Mac can be on wifi. Or they don't have to connected to a network at all.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  > Sounds like it needs a special program and configuration, which is not needed on Apple devices How else would it work across different devices? Apple devices can not connect to e.g. Android devices without a 'special program and configuration' nor can they do so with Linux or Windows or whatever other devices. > Also, KDE Connect needs both devices to be in the same network - which is not needed for Apple devices KDE Connect and other similar tools work fine over a VPN which is the preferred solution for such setups. You can choose which VPN you want to use, OpenVPN and Wireguard are two popular choices. Here again that VPN can be used to connect disparate devices - Linux, Windows, Android, Apple-things, whatever. Apple devices only talk to other Apple devices which is far more restrictive. If you are a happy camper in the walled garden then things are good for you. I prefer the freedom of camping in the wild even if that means I may have to build my own fire and cook my own food since it enables me to go where I please without being held back by that wall and without having to pay the ferryman. To each his own I guess?
  - askonomm 3y ago
    > How else would it work across different devices? Apple devices can not connect to e.g. Android devices I was talking about Mac and iPhone having seamless integration - something I have not noticed of any other ecosystem. I have not been able to share clipboards with an android and a PC (Win and Linux) without installing an app, or doing some other hacky things. The integration, while possible, doesn't exist by default. It's not seamless. It doesn't _just work_. > KDE Connect and other similar tools work fine over a VPN I don't want to use a VPN? I want to use my regular home wifi or phone network, like a normal person.

jksk61 3y ago

Literally never needed to copy text from smartphone to pc (or viceversa). At best anyone needs to sync between photos, docs or stuff like that. For that you just need a sync on the cloud like Dropbox, Drive, Box, and so on (also never heard of bluetooth for small files?) moreover, apple's software is generally very buggy.

phumberdroz 3y ago
Never typed a 2FA code from the phone to the computer? Just copying them on the iPhone and pasting them on the mac is super convenient.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  On android you can view your sms messages at messages.google.com allowing you to easily copy and paste it
  - askonomm 3y ago
    Yeah, can also view email on both phone and computer since forever ago - this is not even remotely similar to the shared clipboard of an iPhone and Mac, where you don't need to open any links or programs, install anything, configure anything - you just copy on phone/computer and then instantly are able to paste on phone/computer.
    - michaelmrose 3y ago
      Have you ever wanted to copy anything from A->B that wasn't a 2fa text, a password, or a url? I certainly haven't. An android phone out of the box supports syncing tabs and passwords and provides a trivial way to copy 2FA codes with a built in feature.
      - askonomm 3y ago
        So your argument is that because the things to copy are few, this feature doesn't matter? Or what? I fail to see how what you say contributes to the discussion of vertical integration in any way.

michaelmrose 3y ago

What is KDE Connect? Which incidentally runs equally well on other desktops and even windows. https://userbase.kde.org/KDEConnect https://userbase.kde.org/KDEConnect Also gsconnect can provide integration with gnome. https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1319/gsconnect/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1319/gsconnect/ KDE Connect is a project that enables all your devices to communicate with each other. Here are a few things KDE Connect can do: Receive your phone notifications on your desktop computer and reply to messages Control music playing on your desktop from your phone Use your phone as a remote control for your desktop Run predefined commands on your PC from connected devices. See the list of example commands for more details. Check your phones battery level from the desktop Ring your phone to help finding it Share files and links between devices Browse your phone from the desktop Control the desktop's volume from the phone Also you can read and reply to messages on your Android phone by navigating to messages.google.com without installing anything Firefox and I presume chrome let you push tabs from one machine to the other or with forefox simply pull up a list of tabs currently open on the other device. Unified remote also gives you a great remote for our multimedia pc. Basically every email service abd chat app has good integration between desktop and phone. Mpd and mafa lets me easily listen to my music Calibre and calibre companion let's me easily sync my books I doubt one person making these things would make them better

ggreer 3y ago
KDE Connect requires both devices to be connected to the same network, which means you have to connect your devices to the same VPN if you're on a wifi network with client isolation (most public wifi). If you're away from wifi, you'll have to configure one of the devices to be an access point and join everything else to that device. Apple's clipboard/handoff/continuity automatically works as long as the devices are within wifi/bluetooth range.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  This is a good point and a good reason to propose an improvement to KDE Connect but users point was that integration would be awful if not done by the same party and it seems to my eyes to be pretty good despite one being created by a party with literally a billionth of the resources of the other.