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I'd wait a bit, at least until end of Q1 2024 to see which place makes the most sense socioeconomically. That said, I strongly recommend the Balkans (e.g: Serb

I'd wait a bit, at least until end of Q1 2024 to see which place makes the most sense socioeconomically. That said, I strongly recommend the Balkans (e.g: Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria, etc.) if you have a remote source of income: very safe, great people, fantastic culture, in the big cities English is widely spoken, low cost-of-living, active tech communities, and you're usually surrounded by tons of beautiful nature and again, some of the best people ever. Not to mention, setting up your own company usually allows you to operate in a low tax/tax-optimized fashion. For what it's worth, I've lived all over Europe (including Germany) and the Balkans really must be the best place in Europe - as long as you're earning remotely, local wages are unfortunately ridiculously low.

konschubert 3y ago
Serbia is preparing to invade Kosovo: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/09/30/europe/kosovo-tensions-military-buid-up-explainer-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/09/30/europe/kosovo-tensions-mi...
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  I follow the news closely as I'm in the area, nothing's going to happen aside from the usual posturing, Serbia's in no rush to be once again on the sharp end of NATO's pointy stick. Even Vucic made it clear: https://www.koha.net/en/arboretum/393870/Serbia-will-not-bring-military-forces-to-Kosovo/ https://www.koha.net/en/arboretum/393870/Serbia-will-not-bri...
qwytw 3y ago
> you're usually surrounded by tons of beautiful nature and again Also very high pollutions levels: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Horalek/publication/281092107/figure/fig1/AS:284602586419200@1444865952557/European-map-showing-the-interpolation-result-for-the-Delta-values-of-PM-10-annual.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Horalek/publication...
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  That map specifically talks of urban air quality. Foreign visitors hanging out among “beautiful nature” are, well, out in nature, not dense urban environments. Especially in the summer when the lowlands are baking, it is popular for foreign remote workers to head up to mountain resort towns that don’t have a lot of air pollution because they don’t have a lot of cars in the area.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    According to this one which shows (PM2.5 instead of PM10 though) county level data it's still pretty bad even in remote areas https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2023/sep/20/europes-pollution-divide-see-how-your-area-compares https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2023/... Especially compared to some more remote areas in Western Europe like the Alps or the Massif Central in France. Which would suggest that emissions from cars are not the main reasons why the Balkans (and Eastern Europe is general) are doing so bad.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      Air pollution in rural areas in the Western Balkans is, besides vehicles, largely a function of burning wood for heating. For example, look at Korçë in Albania, which is a black spot on your linked map (very high pollution): this surely reflects in part the burning of wood in November–April by nearly the entire town, because it is cold at 800 m, but they do not have access to gas heating, and electric heating is expensive. Again, because the trend is mainly to go up to the mountains in the summer months, when the locals are not running their wood stoves, foreign remote workers avoid the worst of that.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  This is a real issue throughout europe, particularity in east europe, where germany has been dumping highly polluting cars for decades sometimes even by threatening countries that tried blocking it, as is always the case with german eu politics, using the might of eu fines and sanctions.
- 3y ago
great_psy 3y ago
Regarding the Balkans … Low cost of living in some regards … housing for example compared to most western countries. But higher cost of living in others … price of gas for example… it’s close to 1.75$ per litere. Food in the big cities is slightly cheaper, but not that much cheaper than the west. Around 40-50$ per person at the restaurant. Food is much cheaper in the smaller towns, but most people from the west are unlikely to want to live there. Gas the same, housing is basically free, but there’s a reason for it.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  I am baffled by your claim that restaurant prices are $40-50 per person. Except in Romania where dining out has surged in price, or in coastal ripoff Montenegro or Croatia, I would be hard pressed to spend more than about $20-25 per person in Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo, or Albania for dinner. (I have no recent Bulgarian experience.) Do you eat at those few places for the local upper class, or order expensive wine or spirits with meals?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- coolThingsFirst 3y ago
  Food is significantly cheaper as is rent. Westerners are unlikely to want to live there because they've never even visited it so that's not an argument against. The Balkans is sunny, taxes are low. I'd take that any day over subzero Northern Germany. 40-50$ per person in a restaurant is a flat out lie so I'm not gonna even bother with that. According to you it's much better to live in a 2m^2 apartment in Paris than in Balkans. I'd take the Balkans any day.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > Food is significantly cheaper Only when eating out (if you're comparing to Northern Germany).
    - 3y ago
AlbertCory 3y ago
Thanks. I've been to Europe a bunch of times, including once east of the Iron Curtain when it was still up. If I were to go back now, the Balkans, Poland, and Lithuania would be the destinations (the last two are for ancestry reasons). They're just more interesting.
Moldoteck 3y ago
There are problems in balkans. In Romania, hospitals are just sh**, same thing with infrastructure/public transport&hoghways and education system. For the rest, yeah, with western salary it's cheap here and food is ok, you can live with little stress from 2k eur/m
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  I'm not talking about vaslui and it's not the early 2000s anymore. My reference point is growing up in western europe, and then spending a decade moving around various western european countries, coming to eastern europe and the balkans some years ago. To be quite frank, I found the balkans a massive upgrade in every way possible including the aspects you mentioned - except local wages. Western europe used to be better, but the past 5 years or so it's nosedived while the balkans has seen improvements.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    I don't talk about vaslui either. Even in big cities hospitals are bad, even private. Same story with education system, also should mention that you'll waste hours of your life in traffic bringing the child to the school, bc pub transport sucks too. Food imo is subpar compared to Italy/France/Spain, both quality and taste, with few exceptions ofc. Romania's trains are bad too. Want to go from Cluj to say Iasi? best bet is either 6h car drive or 6h flight with layover in bucharest(with imo expensive price) or 9h train drive in subhuman conditions(bc usually max speed is abt 50km/h and most trains are from communist era). And this compared to France/Italy/Spain that have a lot of 200km/h+ trains, so that same distance could be covered in two hour train drive. Similar experience is going from cluj to the romania's black sea. Also you have very few highways, so can't drive fast big chunks of the road. And I didn't even cover the quality, just recently a chunk of newly build highway broke down bc of corruption, and prior to that a newly bridge collapsed just before a bus full of kids was about to pass. You get a cheaper life in eastern europe, maybe in some parts like Poland it's better than Romania, but make no mistake, it's a tradeoff, you get a cheaper life but with worse public infra on all levels. For some it's a good tradeoff, for others - not so much

konschubert 3y ago

Serbia is preparing to invade Kosovo: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/09/30/europe/kosovo-tensions-military-buid-up-explainer-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/09/30/europe/kosovo-tensions-mi...

angra_mainyu 3y ago
I follow the news closely as I'm in the area, nothing's going to happen aside from the usual posturing, Serbia's in no rush to be once again on the sharp end of NATO's pointy stick. Even Vucic made it clear: https://www.koha.net/en/arboretum/393870/Serbia-will-not-bring-military-forces-to-Kosovo/ https://www.koha.net/en/arboretum/393870/Serbia-will-not-bri...

qwytw 3y ago

> you're usually surrounded by tons of beautiful nature and again Also very high pollutions levels: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Horalek/publication/281092107/figure/fig1/AS:284602586419200@1444865952557/European-map-showing-the-interpolation-result-for-the-Delta-values-of-PM-10-annual.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Horalek/publication...

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
That map specifically talks of urban air quality. Foreign visitors hanging out among “beautiful nature” are, well, out in nature, not dense urban environments. Especially in the summer when the lowlands are baking, it is popular for foreign remote workers to head up to mountain resort towns that don’t have a lot of air pollution because they don’t have a lot of cars in the area.
- qwytw 3y ago
  According to this one which shows (PM2.5 instead of PM10 though) county level data it's still pretty bad even in remote areas https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2023/sep/20/europes-pollution-divide-see-how-your-area-compares https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2023/... Especially compared to some more remote areas in Western Europe like the Alps or the Massif Central in France. Which would suggest that emissions from cars are not the main reasons why the Balkans (and Eastern Europe is general) are doing so bad.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Air pollution in rural areas in the Western Balkans is, besides vehicles, largely a function of burning wood for heating. For example, look at Korçë in Albania, which is a black spot on your linked map (very high pollution): this surely reflects in part the burning of wood in November–April by nearly the entire town, because it is cold at 800 m, but they do not have access to gas heating, and electric heating is expensive. Again, because the trend is mainly to go up to the mountains in the summer months, when the locals are not running their wood stoves, foreign remote workers avoid the worst of that.
gumballindie 3y ago
This is a real issue throughout europe, particularity in east europe, where germany has been dumping highly polluting cars for decades sometimes even by threatening countries that tried blocking it, as is always the case with german eu politics, using the might of eu fines and sanctions.
3y ago

great_psy 3y ago

Regarding the Balkans … Low cost of living in some regards … housing for example compared to most western countries. But higher cost of living in others … price of gas for example… it’s close to 1.75$ per litere. Food in the big cities is slightly cheaper, but not that much cheaper than the west. Around 40-50$ per person at the restaurant. Food is much cheaper in the smaller towns, but most people from the west are unlikely to want to live there. Gas the same, housing is basically free, but there’s a reason for it.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
I am baffled by your claim that restaurant prices are $40-50 per person. Except in Romania where dining out has surged in price, or in coastal ripoff Montenegro or Croatia, I would be hard pressed to spend more than about $20-25 per person in Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo, or Albania for dinner. (I have no recent Bulgarian experience.) Do you eat at those few places for the local upper class, or order expensive wine or spirits with meals?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
coolThingsFirst 3y ago
Food is significantly cheaper as is rent. Westerners are unlikely to want to live there because they've never even visited it so that's not an argument against. The Balkans is sunny, taxes are low. I'd take that any day over subzero Northern Germany. 40-50$ per person in a restaurant is a flat out lie so I'm not gonna even bother with that. According to you it's much better to live in a 2m^2 apartment in Paris than in Balkans. I'd take the Balkans any day.
- qwytw 3y ago
  > Food is significantly cheaper Only when eating out (if you're comparing to Northern Germany).
  - 3y ago

AlbertCory 3y ago

Thanks. I've been to Europe a bunch of times, including once east of the Iron Curtain when it was still up. If I were to go back now, the Balkans, Poland, and Lithuania would be the destinations (the last two are for ancestry reasons). They're just more interesting.

Moldoteck 3y ago

There are problems in balkans. In Romania, hospitals are just sh**, same thing with infrastructure/public transport&hoghways and education system. For the rest, yeah, with western salary it's cheap here and food is ok, you can live with little stress from 2k eur/m

angra_mainyu 3y ago
I'm not talking about vaslui and it's not the early 2000s anymore. My reference point is growing up in western europe, and then spending a decade moving around various western european countries, coming to eastern europe and the balkans some years ago. To be quite frank, I found the balkans a massive upgrade in every way possible including the aspects you mentioned - except local wages. Western europe used to be better, but the past 5 years or so it's nosedived while the balkans has seen improvements.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  I don't talk about vaslui either. Even in big cities hospitals are bad, even private. Same story with education system, also should mention that you'll waste hours of your life in traffic bringing the child to the school, bc pub transport sucks too. Food imo is subpar compared to Italy/France/Spain, both quality and taste, with few exceptions ofc. Romania's trains are bad too. Want to go from Cluj to say Iasi? best bet is either 6h car drive or 6h flight with layover in bucharest(with imo expensive price) or 9h train drive in subhuman conditions(bc usually max speed is abt 50km/h and most trains are from communist era). And this compared to France/Italy/Spain that have a lot of 200km/h+ trains, so that same distance could be covered in two hour train drive. Similar experience is going from cluj to the romania's black sea. Also you have very few highways, so can't drive fast big chunks of the road. And I didn't even cover the quality, just recently a chunk of newly build highway broke down bc of corruption, and prior to that a newly bridge collapsed just before a bus full of kids was about to pass. You get a cheaper life in eastern europe, maybe in some parts like Poland it's better than Romania, but make no mistake, it's a tradeoff, you get a cheaper life but with worse public infra on all levels. For some it's a good tradeoff, for others - not so much