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This is the kind of snake oil that double blind studies in controlled reference environments have established is snake oil. Like for example, the fact there is

by duped 3y ago

This is the kind of snake oil that double blind studies in controlled reference environments have established is snake oil. Like for example, the fact there is an "audible" diff is meaningless. The threshold of hearing is not linear nor frequency independent. This is called "masking" and it's exploited by lossy codecs to allow for better encoding as well as audio watermarking. You can add a noise that would be perceptible by itself to content that is entirely masked by the content itself. And the reverse is true, you can remove content without it being perceptible.

bayindirh 3y ago
This is the first reaction I always get: "This is snake oil, and you don't know what you're talking about". While there are undisputed snake oils in audio and audiophile market, the difference I'm talking about, is not. The idea of lossy codecs is they filter out the things you theoretically don't hear, yes. However, the presumption that you don't hear these when they are present is not completely true. Because they have a secondary order effects in overall sound. The audible residue you claim that I don't hear when it's in the CD is the part of the sound which adds this instrument separation and soundstage expansion. Same is for higher sampling rates. While you can't pinpoint the difference with words, it shows itself as smoothness and "richer" sound. Saying that you can't hear that difference is akin to saying "Human eye can't see faster than 30/60/X FPS anyways", which is not true. When anyone presented with a lossy-encoded audio file produced with a state of the art encoder and not brick-wall mastered, will be impressed, yes. This includes me, too. However whenever you listen to the same file in lossless or, if present, higher resolution formats, with a sufficiently transparent audio system a couple of times, you start to notice the differences. There are a couple of caveats in all of this audio business. First of all, you need to know how your audio system sounds and behaves to be able to discern differences. This requires time with the same system for a long time, to understand how it responds. In my case, I have the luck of having the same amplifier (An AKAI AM-2850) for ~30 years. I know how that thing responds to any genre of music, and I know how anything should sound at any quality level. Again, as I aforementioned, you need to do these ABX tests a couple of times back to back, esp. if you don't know the track, to be able to decode the details in sufficient manner. Digitalfeed's ABX test (https://abx.digitalfeed.net https://abx.digitalfeed.net) understands this and makes you listen to the same thing 5-10 times according to your available time. See, I'm an ex-orchestra player. I played in concerts, listened master recordings, and YouTube uploads of the concerts I played as well. I have also listened tons of CDs, MP3s of the same albums, etc. Some of the albums I listen have a captivating sound when I listen to them from CDs. MP3 versions of the same albums do not nail me to my chair, yet I can't leave the CD version of the same album to get a cup of tea. Both are ran through a Yamaha CD-S300 CD player with an iPod interface and MP3 playing capability over USB. I can also write how CD tracking quality affects audio clarity, but this comment is long enough. In short, Yamaha's old CD-Recorder, CRW-F1 really improved sound quality by abusing Red Book standard by lengthening the pits of audio CDs. It reduced to capacity to 68 minutes, but it was worth it, esp. on lower end CD players.
- mmastrac 3y ago
  > I can also write how CD tracking quality affects audio clarity, but this comment is long enough. In short, Yamaha's old CD-Recorder, CRW-F1 really improved sound quality by abusing Red Book standard by lengthening the pits of audio CDs. It reduced to capacity to 68 minutes, but it was worth it, esp. on lower end CD players. Sorry this one part especially makes no sense. Digital is digital. Either it added more samples per second, or more bits per sample, or it's snake oil. There's a stream of bits that comes out of the reader. There's no residual information about the length of the pits. EDIT, yeah sorry this is completely and utterly impossible that you are getting better "audio clarity": "Yamaha tries to attract computer enabled audiophiles with the Audio Master technology. Audio Master promises reduced jitter and decreased error rates for audio recordings via extended pit and gap sizes on the CD-R. This is actually quite simply achieved by increasing the disc rotation speed vs. the laser clock frequency. In other words, Audio Master recording at 8x rotates the disc at 8.2x, thus creating the extended pit & gap lengths. This naturally reduces the capacity of the disc." Literally they are just spinning the disc faster, reducing capacity and make it slightly less likely that errors will be read. If you're getting read errors on playback, that means your disc is dirty or your CD player sucks. It's the same bitstream, just read at a different linear rate. If you honestly believe that this is an audiophile concern, I'd urge you to reevaluate a lot of your other beliefs, because they are clearly not all grounded in technical facts.
  - morganw 3y ago
    The problem is not the values delivered to the DAC. It's the aperture error of when the DAC was clocked. This affects what those sample values actually represent. If the clock is being extracted from the pattern of pits and there's a way to reduce the jitter, you will get a more accurate signal. However, I'd hope that anyone that cares about fidelity has a CD player that does a little more to generate a DAC clock. NCO run by a software PLL or a hardware PLL with a good loop filter are things I've heard of, but control systems is not my specialty.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    CRW-F1 didn't encode more information into the pits. It allowed lower end DACs to have more time to switch properly by giving them a slower signal stream within acceptable limits. DAC's digital part is easy. What differs in quality is the analog part. If DACs were that simple, a 25 cent DAC would power every unit from bottom bin to top tier. Before that Yamaha CD player I had, I used a lower end Sony CD-Player (I don't remember the model, sorry). Writing the same album, to same brand of CD-R, with the same speed in two different modes created two audibly different disks. I sometimes challenged myself by writing in both modes, not marking the CD-Rs, and the audio difference was always audible. Even after weeks. 68 minute CDs were always had larger sound stages with more clarity and instrument separation. This is again on the same AKAI AM-2850 amplifier. I guess this difference would be impossible to hear today, because higher end units have better tracking and better DACs. Also some of them use DAE and use multi-second buffers, so the "slower stream" is no longer present in the pipeline due to buffering.

by duped 3y ago

bayindirh 3y ago

This is the first reaction I always get: "This is snake oil, and you don't know what you're talking about". While there are undisputed snake oils in audio and audiophile market, the difference I'm talking about, is not. The idea of lossy codecs is they filter out the things you theoretically don't hear, yes. However, the presumption that you don't hear these when they are present is not completely true. Because they have a secondary order effects in overall sound. The audible residue you claim that I don't hear when it's in the CD is the part of the sound which adds this instrument separation and soundstage expansion. Same is for higher sampling rates. While you can't pinpoint the difference with words, it shows itself as smoothness and "richer" sound. Saying that you can't hear that difference is akin to saying "Human eye can't see faster than 30/60/X FPS anyways", which is not true. When anyone presented with a lossy-encoded audio file produced with a state of the art encoder and not brick-wall mastered, will be impressed, yes. This includes me, too. However whenever you listen to the same file in lossless or, if present, higher resolution formats, with a sufficiently transparent audio system a couple of times, you start to notice the differences. There are a couple of caveats in all of this audio business. First of all, you need to know how your audio system sounds and behaves to be able to discern differences. This requires time with the same system for a long time, to understand how it responds. In my case, I have the luck of having the same amplifier (An AKAI AM-2850) for ~30 years. I know how that thing responds to any genre of music, and I know how anything should sound at any quality level. Again, as I aforementioned, you need to do these ABX tests a couple of times back to back, esp. if you don't know the track, to be able to decode the details in sufficient manner. Digitalfeed's ABX test (https://abx.digitalfeed.net https://abx.digitalfeed.net) understands this and makes you listen to the same thing 5-10 times according to your available time. See, I'm an ex-orchestra player. I played in concerts, listened master recordings, and YouTube uploads of the concerts I played as well. I have also listened tons of CDs, MP3s of the same albums, etc. Some of the albums I listen have a captivating sound when I listen to them from CDs. MP3 versions of the same albums do not nail me to my chair, yet I can't leave the CD version of the same album to get a cup of tea. Both are ran through a Yamaha CD-S300 CD player with an iPod interface and MP3 playing capability over USB. I can also write how CD tracking quality affects audio clarity, but this comment is long enough. In short, Yamaha's old CD-Recorder, CRW-F1 really improved sound quality by abusing Red Book standard by lengthening the pits of audio CDs. It reduced to capacity to 68 minutes, but it was worth it, esp. on lower end CD players.

mmastrac 3y ago
> I can also write how CD tracking quality affects audio clarity, but this comment is long enough. In short, Yamaha's old CD-Recorder, CRW-F1 really improved sound quality by abusing Red Book standard by lengthening the pits of audio CDs. It reduced to capacity to 68 minutes, but it was worth it, esp. on lower end CD players. Sorry this one part especially makes no sense. Digital is digital. Either it added more samples per second, or more bits per sample, or it's snake oil. There's a stream of bits that comes out of the reader. There's no residual information about the length of the pits. EDIT, yeah sorry this is completely and utterly impossible that you are getting better "audio clarity": "Yamaha tries to attract computer enabled audiophiles with the Audio Master technology. Audio Master promises reduced jitter and decreased error rates for audio recordings via extended pit and gap sizes on the CD-R. This is actually quite simply achieved by increasing the disc rotation speed vs. the laser clock frequency. In other words, Audio Master recording at 8x rotates the disc at 8.2x, thus creating the extended pit & gap lengths. This naturally reduces the capacity of the disc." Literally they are just spinning the disc faster, reducing capacity and make it slightly less likely that errors will be read. If you're getting read errors on playback, that means your disc is dirty or your CD player sucks. It's the same bitstream, just read at a different linear rate. If you honestly believe that this is an audiophile concern, I'd urge you to reevaluate a lot of your other beliefs, because they are clearly not all grounded in technical facts.
- morganw 3y ago
  The problem is not the values delivered to the DAC. It's the aperture error of when the DAC was clocked. This affects what those sample values actually represent. If the clock is being extracted from the pattern of pits and there's a way to reduce the jitter, you will get a more accurate signal. However, I'd hope that anyone that cares about fidelity has a CD player that does a little more to generate a DAC clock. NCO run by a software PLL or a hardware PLL with a good loop filter are things I've heard of, but control systems is not my specialty.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  CRW-F1 didn't encode more information into the pits. It allowed lower end DACs to have more time to switch properly by giving them a slower signal stream within acceptable limits. DAC's digital part is easy. What differs in quality is the analog part. If DACs were that simple, a 25 cent DAC would power every unit from bottom bin to top tier. Before that Yamaha CD player I had, I used a lower end Sony CD-Player (I don't remember the model, sorry). Writing the same album, to same brand of CD-R, with the same speed in two different modes created two audibly different disks. I sometimes challenged myself by writing in both modes, not marking the CD-Rs, and the audio difference was always audible. Even after weeks. 68 minute CDs were always had larger sound stages with more clarity and instrument separation. This is again on the same AKAI AM-2850 amplifier. I guess this difference would be impossible to hear today, because higher end units have better tracking and better DACs. Also some of them use DAE and use multi-second buffers, so the "slower stream" is no longer present in the pipeline due to buffering.