4 ms·

On a recent episode [0] of the Geopolitics Decanted podcast there was a discussion that pretty much agrees with your take on this not being the one thing to bla

On a recent episode [0] of the Geopolitics Decanted podcast there was a discussion that pretty much agrees with your take on this not being the one thing to blame Musk for. I am pretty confused about your "anti-war" comment though. In the russo-Ukrainian war the calls for "anti-war" can be made only to russia and since we know that this has been proven to be futile the rest of the options are to let Ukrainians die, be tortured, raped, enslaved, terrorized or help them. Or am I missing something? [0] - https://podcast.silverado.org/episodes/starlink-in-ukraine-why-the-story-is-not-so-simple https://podcast.silverado.org/episodes/starlink-in-ukraine-w...

sneak 3y ago
You're missing something in that there is a war with two participants going on. It is not accurate to say that "calls for anti-war can only be made to Russia". Ukraine could of course end the war today by surrendering. I'm not saying that that is good or bad, just that it's fact. It seems to be heterodox to point out that the war could probably end immediately in some capacity other than total surrender by one of the combatants, which would necessarily involve a new status quo that does not comport with the pre-annexation territory lines. Musk was attacked endlessly for proposing such a thing. I personally think the tragedy befalling the societies on both sides of this conflict are roughly on the same order in terms of magnitude, and that whatever we can do to end the senseless deaths of thousands of people should be done, regardless of where lines on maps end up. Our automatic and reflexive human drive for fairness and equity seems to be incompatible with this idea of letting an invader keep their ill-gotten territorial gains, preferring instead to continue slaughtering population on both sides in service of an old map. It is not more or less tragic when a teenage Russian conscript's mother gets the news of her son's slaughter than it is when a Ukranian mother gets similar news of her own son after he has been forced into slavery in service of a status quo that no longer exists. I see everyone clamoring how this is "not our war" but neither is it that of those who are being forced at gunpoint into this violence, no matter what flag is on their arm. If you believe, as I do, that the Ukranian people are a somewhat cohesive group with a distinct culture and identity that is worth preserving, the optimal strategy for preserving that culture and group into the future seems to me to take whatever actions possible that will preserve the lives of as many Ukrainians as possible, regardless of what nationality they are assigned by whoever controls the territory on which they live. I fear that they have chosen to trade numbers for sovereignty, which historically never works out very well when matched against an opponent with vastly more resources. I want people (Ukrainians AND Russians) to stop being killed. Now. Today. All other considerations are secondary.
- RuskiTuggy 3y ago
  [flagged]
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  In the areas occupied by russians the killing does not stop when the fighting stops. There are countless examples of this from this war and previous ones. So your claim that borders don’t matter one should just accept conquest is utterly naive. The human wish for fairness has a reason and this comes from a deeper place of understanding that accepting aggression will encourage more aggression.
  - sneak 3y ago
    Well, not accepting aggression is also encouraging more aggression. What is being done now is not working to bring about peace. Something else must be done.
    - jnsaff2 3y ago
      Something else is being done, there are sanctions, there is ostracizing, there is building awareness, exposing misinfo, etc. Effectiveness of those stopping russian murder is fairly low however. Ask yourself what would you do if a brute would show up under your home window and start shouting: “you are a nazi, some babtism happened in this neighborhood centuries ago, therefore I demand your home belongs to me”. Then breaks down your front door, occupies your kitchen, kills one of your kids, rapes another, flings stones against your windows every night, cuts your electricity regularly, tries to set the house on fire etc. Would you fight? Would you ask for help? Or would you appreciate a neighbor few streets down telling you ‘all this commotion is ruining my vibe, give your home to the bully and accept them as your new head of family’? Maybe they will not kill you, also maybe they will not starve you in another holodomor? If you have any viable ideas of bringing peace, let’s hear them. If they involve denying agency to the people of Ukraine, telling them that from now on you must live under russian tyranny then this is not a viable solution for ending killing nor bringing lasting peace.
      - 3y ago

sneak 3y ago

You're missing something in that there is a war with two participants going on. It is not accurate to say that "calls for anti-war can only be made to Russia". Ukraine could of course end the war today by surrendering. I'm not saying that that is good or bad, just that it's fact. It seems to be heterodox to point out that the war could probably end immediately in some capacity other than total surrender by one of the combatants, which would necessarily involve a new status quo that does not comport with the pre-annexation territory lines. Musk was attacked endlessly for proposing such a thing. I personally think the tragedy befalling the societies on both sides of this conflict are roughly on the same order in terms of magnitude, and that whatever we can do to end the senseless deaths of thousands of people should be done, regardless of where lines on maps end up. Our automatic and reflexive human drive for fairness and equity seems to be incompatible with this idea of letting an invader keep their ill-gotten territorial gains, preferring instead to continue slaughtering population on both sides in service of an old map. It is not more or less tragic when a teenage Russian conscript's mother gets the news of her son's slaughter than it is when a Ukranian mother gets similar news of her own son after he has been forced into slavery in service of a status quo that no longer exists. I see everyone clamoring how this is "not our war" but neither is it that of those who are being forced at gunpoint into this violence, no matter what flag is on their arm. If you believe, as I do, that the Ukranian people are a somewhat cohesive group with a distinct culture and identity that is worth preserving, the optimal strategy for preserving that culture and group into the future seems to me to take whatever actions possible that will preserve the lives of as many Ukrainians as possible, regardless of what nationality they are assigned by whoever controls the territory on which they live. I fear that they have chosen to trade numbers for sovereignty, which historically never works out very well when matched against an opponent with vastly more resources. I want people (Ukrainians AND Russians) to stop being killed. Now. Today. All other considerations are secondary.

RuskiTuggy 3y ago
[flagged]
jnsaff2 3y ago
In the areas occupied by russians the killing does not stop when the fighting stops. There are countless examples of this from this war and previous ones. So your claim that borders don’t matter one should just accept conquest is utterly naive. The human wish for fairness has a reason and this comes from a deeper place of understanding that accepting aggression will encourage more aggression.
- sneak 3y ago
  Well, not accepting aggression is also encouraging more aggression. What is being done now is not working to bring about peace. Something else must be done.
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    Something else is being done, there are sanctions, there is ostracizing, there is building awareness, exposing misinfo, etc. Effectiveness of those stopping russian murder is fairly low however. Ask yourself what would you do if a brute would show up under your home window and start shouting: “you are a nazi, some babtism happened in this neighborhood centuries ago, therefore I demand your home belongs to me”. Then breaks down your front door, occupies your kitchen, kills one of your kids, rapes another, flings stones against your windows every night, cuts your electricity regularly, tries to set the house on fire etc. Would you fight? Would you ask for help? Or would you appreciate a neighbor few streets down telling you ‘all this commotion is ruining my vibe, give your home to the bully and accept them as your new head of family’? Maybe they will not kill you, also maybe they will not starve you in another holodomor? If you have any viable ideas of bringing peace, let’s hear them. If they involve denying agency to the people of Ukraine, telling them that from now on you must live under russian tyranny then this is not a viable solution for ending killing nor bringing lasting peace.
    - 3y ago