28 ms·

It’s naive to think this is about child-abuse. That’s just there to frame the discussion. Interpol is not going to stop at analyzing images for csam - it’s not

by catoc 3y ago

It’s naive to think this is about child-abuse. That’s just there to frame the discussion. Interpol is not going to stop at analyzing images for csam - it’s not even the real goal. The goal is complete government oversight. And no I am not into conspiracy theories. It’s same as with attempts at “breakable encryption”, it’s offered up under the guise of fighting child-abuse/terrorism/<insert-terrible-thing-everybody-has-to-agree-is-terrible>, but the goal is to increase government access to all communications between civilians.

verisimi 3y ago
You are so conspiratorial! I just can't believe that anyone would want total control of everyone else's data, while remaining entirely anonymous and unaccountable themselves! /s I actually think that it's coming to the point that the gains of technology, even large bits such as 'the internet' or mobile phones, are so inhuman that it's not worth it. I think modern tech can easily be characterised an almost entirely subsumed for governmental and corporate control. If we thought giving banks licenses to print money was bad, giving these nefarious entities control over everyone's data will be far worse.
Kim_Bruning 3y ago
I'm not even sure complete oversight is the goal. All of the individuals involved might even have the purest of intentions. But time and time again the outcome of such actions (when left un-countered) does seem to end up with more spying on civilians.
- Sakos 3y ago
  Even the purest of intentions can't justify by itself any particular decision or action taken. The decision or action itself must be evaluated on its own merits. Or you find yourself excusing everybody from abusive partners to dictators (which we see everywhere, unfortunately).
- lozenge 3y ago
  Complete oversight is a pure intention to some people.
  - buran77 3y ago
    Some if not most evils in history started with someone truly believing it's the path to righteousness. And good or bad, the larger one's reach, the more likely they truly believe they are a savior, the hero, the solution.
- csomar 3y ago
  The persistence to pass this regardless of all the push-back that happened suggests that there is no "pure" intention out there. Zero.
- KineticLensman 3y ago
  > But time and time again the outcome of such actions (when left un-countered) does seem to end up with more spying on civilians. A good example of this in the UK is the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act [0] that constrains anti-terrorist surveillance and investigation, but which ended up, amongst other things, being used by local councils to track whether children lived in particular school catchment areas, tracking fly-tippers, etc. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Po...
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  It's the same with benevolent aristocracy, I'm sure there have been good rulers in the past who considered it their duty to serve the interest of the people and be benevolent, however 80-90% (conservative estimate) are not. They see themselves as the pinnacle of humanity and "why not? why shouldn't I do whatever I want? The peasants are wrong!" . It's the same with all positions of power and why there have to be counterbalances like courts and laws to protect privacy.
corn13read2 3y ago
Very well said, it’s unfortunate that they can simply pick this as a pressure point and the public might accept it.
draugadrotten 3y ago
Behind the proposal is several Big Tech companies with a lot of money which are seeking lucrative government contracts. One of them is Aston Kutcher's Thorn which seems to have a very good report with the EU Commissioner Ylva Johansson. https://www-svd-se.translate.goog/a/ona477/kandisbolaget-thorn-lobbar-for-chat-control-vill-salja-tekniken?_x_tr_sl=sv&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=sv&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-svd-se.translate.goog/a/ona477/kandisbolaget-tho... https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/09/26/the-eu-fight-against-child-pornography-stokes-fears-of-widespread-online-surveillance_6140055_8.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/09/26/t...
- belter 3y ago
  https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2023/09/2023-09-28_LIBE_Johansson_CSAM_33850.pdf https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2023/09/2023-09-28_LIB... "...Those aforementioned media reports point to alleged close working relationships between the European Commission and a broad network of tech companies, foundations, security agencies and PR agencies, including Thorn and WeProtect Global Alliance, indicating possible undue influence in the drafting of the proposal. Of particular concern are the allegations that the solutions laid down in the legislative proposal to fight CSAM supposedly replicate the solutions designed by those groups, contributing thereby to furthering their economic interests..." This is of course, the same Ashton Kutcher, who recently wrote a letter advocating leniency for a Scientology member convicted to 30 years in prison for rape, after his sentence.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - class4behavior 3y ago
    Let's not pretend Americans did not eat up all his philanthropy in the name of the children, thus boosting his influence in politics: https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/qrx02w/shoutout_to_this_man_ashton_kutcher_who_went_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/qrx02w/sh... https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomememes/comments/a8dral/ashton_kutcher_yall/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomememes/comments/a8dral/asht... https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/mo7krd/ashton_kutcher_helps_save_6000_kids_from_human/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/mo7krd/as... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5uh8rq/ashton_kutchers_organisation_identifies_2000/ https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5uh8rq/ashton_kutcher... https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/ca386l/ashton_kutcher_spreading_awareness_of_human/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/ca386l/ashton_... https://www.reddit.com/r/HumansBeingBros/comments/aki1c1/ashton_kutcher_has_an_organization_thorn_that_has/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HumansBeingBros/comments/aki1c1/ash... Afaik all of these threads reached the front page. And that's just the oh so skeptical Reddit community
miki123211 3y ago
Do we actually have any proof of this? I see this argument often, it's basically taken as an obvious truth in tech circles at this point, but I've seen very little evidence of that happening so far. To be clear, I think these anti-CSAM laws are pretty terrible, but I wouldn't attribute malice where simple incompetence suffices, as the saying goes.
- salawat 3y ago
  Stop using Hanlon's Razor. The only people it cuts are the people who use it. Stupidity is weaponized soas to become indstinguishable from malice.
- class4behavior 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - skinkestek 3y ago
    Lets not pretend the socialist side were any better: Soviet was on the extreme side as is China.
    - class4behavior 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - avidiax 3y ago
    > Do we actually have any proof of this? It's entirely possible that the people currently advocating, and the current would-be users will only target our current definition of "bad people". On a long enough time horizon, every power will be abused. The "bad people" will be redefined, or the ends will justify the means.
- catoc 3y ago
postmodest 3y ago
The thing that gets me is that "paedophile" is an easy bogey man to let us point fingers because literally everyone (no offense ace folk) has at one time been attracted to minors. And we are embedded in a Patriarchal society that puts an emphasis on youthful femininity as a commodity. So pushing the "paedo" button is the same thing that cults do: leverage shame to gain authority.
mk89 3y ago
I am all for privacy and so on, however you have to admit that with the current technology alone it's basically impossible to track or prevent certain types of crimes - and it's becoming more and more difficult. I am decently sure that terror attacks are prevented on a monthly/yearly basis - luckily, it doesn't make the news, when it does it's too late. Child pornography is another beast difficult to solve - again, I am quite sure that they are able to find groups etc on a more frequent basis than we think. When they don't, I don't even want to think about it. What tools do current investigators have? If you were a detective investigating a case, what would you do or use? Basically everything useful is either 1) illegal, or 2) technically almost impossible to do (e.g, decrypting https which takes still years to brute force). You could try to ask for a favor left and right to get to a search warrant or install spying devices and "fix" (1) but how the hell do you break (2)? Communication is happening online and a "military grade encrypted channel" has basically become the standard way of communicating with each other. The few who still use outdated clients or protocols - shame on them. So, yeah, I really do understand the fact that governments want access to data for their own nasty purposes, however, what can we do as a society to make it 1) difficult for average Joe to use military grade encryption to act criminal, 2) easier for police to find criminals? I know a knife can be used to cut bread or to kill someone, however, we're talking here about groups of hundreds of people sharing child pornography - that's not a knife, it's a freaking weapon of mass destruction in the hands of people who shouldn't ever ever have access to them. No, I don't want the Chinese way, but what can we do to avoid getting there? Can you think of something?
- catoc 3y ago
  Using the encryption argument: Encryption is a solved problem. Easy to implement solutions are available everywhere. (yes, post-quantum cryptography is not yet solved, irrelevant for the current discussion). That means that even if it were technically possible to create "legally-breakable-encryption", criminals would simply use real encryption and law abiding citizens would be stuck with broken "encryption" and be vulnerable to government surveillance... and to said criminals. I.e.: there are only downsides. And government experts know this just as well as anyone. Which makes their agenda very clear. More in general, imho, the benefits have to outweigh the costs: even if breaking all encryption would have offered a small benefit in fighting bad guys, that still does not outweigh the costs of a total loss of privacy (think china) for everyone.
t0bia_s 3y ago
Same for digitalID. Or digital currency. Soon there will be lobbying for removing cash. Of course because it is used by criminals and cannot be tracked. Who cares that you need electronic device and connection for make any digital transaction. Or who cares that it is absloute surveillance by state. But it is for our safety of course. You need to sacrifice your freedom for safety of others!

by catoc 3y ago

verisimi 3y ago

You are so conspiratorial! I just can't believe that anyone would want total control of everyone else's data, while remaining entirely anonymous and unaccountable themselves! /s I actually think that it's coming to the point that the gains of technology, even large bits such as 'the internet' or mobile phones, are so inhuman that it's not worth it. I think modern tech can easily be characterised an almost entirely subsumed for governmental and corporate control. If we thought giving banks licenses to print money was bad, giving these nefarious entities control over everyone's data will be far worse.

Kim_Bruning 3y ago

I'm not even sure complete oversight is the goal. All of the individuals involved might even have the purest of intentions. But time and time again the outcome of such actions (when left un-countered) does seem to end up with more spying on civilians.

Sakos 3y ago
Even the purest of intentions can't justify by itself any particular decision or action taken. The decision or action itself must be evaluated on its own merits. Or you find yourself excusing everybody from abusive partners to dictators (which we see everywhere, unfortunately).
lozenge 3y ago
Complete oversight is a pure intention to some people.
- buran77 3y ago
  Some if not most evils in history started with someone truly believing it's the path to righteousness. And good or bad, the larger one's reach, the more likely they truly believe they are a savior, the hero, the solution.
csomar 3y ago
The persistence to pass this regardless of all the push-back that happened suggests that there is no "pure" intention out there. Zero.
KineticLensman 3y ago
> But time and time again the outcome of such actions (when left un-countered) does seem to end up with more spying on civilians. A good example of this in the UK is the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act [0] that constrains anti-terrorist surveillance and investigation, but which ended up, amongst other things, being used by local councils to track whether children lived in particular school catchment areas, tracking fly-tippers, etc. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Po...
lost_tourist 3y ago
It's the same with benevolent aristocracy, I'm sure there have been good rulers in the past who considered it their duty to serve the interest of the people and be benevolent, however 80-90% (conservative estimate) are not. They see themselves as the pinnacle of humanity and "why not? why shouldn't I do whatever I want? The peasants are wrong!" . It's the same with all positions of power and why there have to be counterbalances like courts and laws to protect privacy.

corn13read2 3y ago

Very well said, it’s unfortunate that they can simply pick this as a pressure point and the public might accept it.

draugadrotten 3y ago

Behind the proposal is several Big Tech companies with a lot of money which are seeking lucrative government contracts. One of them is Aston Kutcher's Thorn which seems to have a very good report with the EU Commissioner Ylva Johansson. https://www-svd-se.translate.goog/a/ona477/kandisbolaget-thorn-lobbar-for-chat-control-vill-salja-tekniken?_x_tr_sl=sv&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=sv&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-svd-se.translate.goog/a/ona477/kandisbolaget-tho... https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/09/26/the-eu-fight-against-child-pornography-stokes-fears-of-widespread-online-surveillance_6140055_8.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/09/26/t...

belter 3y ago
https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2023/09/2023-09-28_LIBE_Johansson_CSAM_33850.pdf https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2023/09/2023-09-28_LIB... "...Those aforementioned media reports point to alleged close working relationships between the European Commission and a broad network of tech companies, foundations, security agencies and PR agencies, including Thorn and WeProtect Global Alliance, indicating possible undue influence in the drafting of the proposal. Of particular concern are the allegations that the solutions laid down in the legislative proposal to fight CSAM supposedly replicate the solutions designed by those groups, contributing thereby to furthering their economic interests..." This is of course, the same Ashton Kutcher, who recently wrote a letter advocating leniency for a Scientology member convicted to 30 years in prison for rape, after his sentence.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- class4behavior 3y ago
  Let's not pretend Americans did not eat up all his philanthropy in the name of the children, thus boosting his influence in politics: https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/qrx02w/shoutout_to_this_man_ashton_kutcher_who_went_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/qrx02w/sh... https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomememes/comments/a8dral/ashton_kutcher_yall/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomememes/comments/a8dral/asht... https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/mo7krd/ashton_kutcher_helps_save_6000_kids_from_human/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/mo7krd/as... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5uh8rq/ashton_kutchers_organisation_identifies_2000/ https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5uh8rq/ashton_kutcher... https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/ca386l/ashton_kutcher_spreading_awareness_of_human/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/ca386l/ashton_... https://www.reddit.com/r/HumansBeingBros/comments/aki1c1/ashton_kutcher_has_an_organization_thorn_that_has/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HumansBeingBros/comments/aki1c1/ash... Afaik all of these threads reached the front page. And that's just the oh so skeptical Reddit community

miki123211 3y ago

Do we actually have any proof of this? I see this argument often, it's basically taken as an obvious truth in tech circles at this point, but I've seen very little evidence of that happening so far. To be clear, I think these anti-CSAM laws are pretty terrible, but I wouldn't attribute malice where simple incompetence suffices, as the saying goes.

salawat 3y ago
Stop using Hanlon's Razor. The only people it cuts are the people who use it. Stupidity is weaponized soas to become indstinguishable from malice.
class4behavior 3y ago
[flagged]
- skinkestek 3y ago
  Lets not pretend the socialist side were any better: Soviet was on the extreme side as is China.
  - class4behavior 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- avidiax 3y ago
  > Do we actually have any proof of this? It's entirely possible that the people currently advocating, and the current would-be users will only target our current definition of "bad people". On a long enough time horizon, every power will be abused. The "bad people" will be redefined, or the ends will justify the means.
catoc 3y ago

postmodest 3y ago

The thing that gets me is that "paedophile" is an easy bogey man to let us point fingers because literally everyone (no offense ace folk) has at one time been attracted to minors. And we are embedded in a Patriarchal society that puts an emphasis on youthful femininity as a commodity. So pushing the "paedo" button is the same thing that cults do: leverage shame to gain authority.

mk89 3y ago

I am all for privacy and so on, however you have to admit that with the current technology alone it's basically impossible to track or prevent certain types of crimes - and it's becoming more and more difficult. I am decently sure that terror attacks are prevented on a monthly/yearly basis - luckily, it doesn't make the news, when it does it's too late. Child pornography is another beast difficult to solve - again, I am quite sure that they are able to find groups etc on a more frequent basis than we think. When they don't, I don't even want to think about it. What tools do current investigators have? If you were a detective investigating a case, what would you do or use? Basically everything useful is either 1) illegal, or 2) technically almost impossible to do (e.g, decrypting https which takes still years to brute force). You could try to ask for a favor left and right to get to a search warrant or install spying devices and "fix" (1) but how the hell do you break (2)? Communication is happening online and a "military grade encrypted channel" has basically become the standard way of communicating with each other. The few who still use outdated clients or protocols - shame on them. So, yeah, I really do understand the fact that governments want access to data for their own nasty purposes, however, what can we do as a society to make it 1) difficult for average Joe to use military grade encryption to act criminal, 2) easier for police to find criminals? I know a knife can be used to cut bread or to kill someone, however, we're talking here about groups of hundreds of people sharing child pornography - that's not a knife, it's a freaking weapon of mass destruction in the hands of people who shouldn't ever ever have access to them. No, I don't want the Chinese way, but what can we do to avoid getting there? Can you think of something?

catoc 3y ago
Using the encryption argument: Encryption is a solved problem. Easy to implement solutions are available everywhere. (yes, post-quantum cryptography is not yet solved, irrelevant for the current discussion). That means that even if it were technically possible to create "legally-breakable-encryption", criminals would simply use real encryption and law abiding citizens would be stuck with broken "encryption" and be vulnerable to government surveillance... and to said criminals. I.e.: there are only downsides. And government experts know this just as well as anyone. Which makes their agenda very clear. More in general, imho, the benefits have to outweigh the costs: even if breaking all encryption would have offered a small benefit in fighting bad guys, that still does not outweigh the costs of a total loss of privacy (think china) for everyone.

t0bia_s 3y ago

Same for digitalID. Or digital currency. Soon there will be lobbying for removing cash. Of course because it is used by criminals and cannot be tracked. Who cares that you need electronic device and connection for make any digital transaction. Or who cares that it is absloute surveillance by state. But it is for our safety of course. You need to sacrifice your freedom for safety of others!