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> Having and raising children is expensive (both financially and otherwise) regardless any factor(s). Any parent will corroborate this. I’m a parent, I disagre

by tomp 3y ago

> Having and raising children is expensive (both financially and otherwise) regardless any factor(s). Any parent will corroborate this. I’m a parent, I disagree. I might have thought in my 20s that having kids is expensive, but in my 30s I make so much money that is not an issue. Buying a house, that is expensive :) > I do not find life worth foisting upon a new individual; life is nothing but challenges and hardships. I refuse to throw a newborn life into this hellscape. Have you spoken to a therapist recently? You might be depressed. From my point of view, life is beautiful and challenges make it interesting.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
weatherlite 3y ago
> From my point of view, life is beautiful and challenges make it interesting This is a very deep and philosophical question, I think its perfectly reasonable for people who are not depressed to still come to the conclusion that they don't want to create more life since life itself is too difficult. Even in a best case scenario of being born to a rich, loving family in some prosperous democracy you still have to deal with yours and everyone you loves mortality. I think there's another interesting issue that may be going on - people postpone having kids more and more, many start seriously considering it in their late 30s. That's an age where most people also start feeling the squeeze of midlife - ill parents you need to take care of, sometimes your own health starting to decline a bit etc. It's not surprising some people give up on kids.
satvikpendem 3y ago
You are rich enough that raising a child is no longer a major expense for you, is this not the exception that proves the parent commenter's rule, then? Most are not so lucky as you.
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  There are a large number of people who make significantly less than SWE here that have and raise children. Rural Appalachia is one example.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    Appalachia is much cheaper than SF, so one can make less and still have a good time raising their kids. It's not about absolute income, it's about purchasing power parity between areas of a country or world.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  Poor people have more children, just fyi
wiseowise 3y ago
Implying that someone is depressed and need to see therapist because their life vision differs from your is extremely ignorant and offensive. Especially when original point isn’t controversial at all.
- ninkendo 3y ago
  They didn’t suggest therapy because of the point about not wanting kids. They suggested therapy because of the point about life being nothing but challenge and hardship, misery, etc. I think it’s not controversial to point out that therapy might help with that.
- TheHappyOddish 3y ago
  It would be, but they didn't. I assume this was the reference point for that comment: > life is nothing but challenges and hardships. I refuse to throw a newborn life into this hellscape.
hotpotamus 3y ago
I've spoken to therapists nearly my entire life (another expense you may be on the hook for as a parent, like my parents were), and no therapy or drug has ever been able to allow me to find any meaning in life. It's not a struggle I have any interest in passing down to another. Which gets at a question I often have for those in these threads - what would you do if you had a child who was so depressed that they're unable to live independently?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Maybe there is no meaning in it, at least in some people’s worldview. Perhaps the optimal path for people who feel that way is to enjoy the good parts until it comes to an end?
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    Yes, it's quite apparent in peoples' art - from Voltaire's "Candide" to Rick and Morty, my favorite example would be when Morty says, "Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV". When Douglas Adams said that the answer to life, the universe, and everything is "42", it was pretty obvious that he was saying that the entire question is just absurd. Enjoying what time is left is indeed my goal, and perhaps what a stoic or existentialist would tell you as well. It has not been easy though.
- tomp 3y ago
  I’m an outlier here probably, I’d support the child in doing almost whatever they wanted to do, including euthanasia.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    Thank you for this response. Outlier though it may surely well be, I find it lovely in a way though I doubt any parent (and indeed most humans) would actually be able to follow through with the extreme example given.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
rs999gti 3y ago
> hellscape If you come from or live in a western country, you have no idea how good your life is. And how you have to make up problems because real problems have been done away by your society. Real poor people in Asia and Africa would give anything to be poor people where you live.
- tomp 3y ago
  you replied to the wrong comment LOL
- InSteady 3y ago
  Ah, the classic "there are starving children in Africa so your feelings and perceptions are invalid."
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Subjective wellbeing means that everyone thinks they need 10% more to be happy.
munksbeer 3y ago
> I’m a parent, I disagree. I might have thought in my 20s that having kids is expensive, but in my 30s I make so much money that is not an issue. Buying a house, that is expensive :) You're contradicting yourself. I'm a dad of two. Kids are extremely expensive and the largest expense is needing a large enough house in an area with good schools (UK here). That alone adds extra hundreds of thousands to your cost of living.
- tomp 3y ago
  No, it’s orthogonal. My 2 cousins grew up in a one-bedroom flat of 50m2. On the other hand, I would have wanted a larger flat / house even if I remained childless and/or single. Schooling in the UK is indeed a fuckup of epic proportions that I luckily don’t need to get involved with, but homeschooling is an option, right? The alternatives are getting better and better, with improved technology etc.

by tomp 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

weatherlite 3y ago

> From my point of view, life is beautiful and challenges make it interesting This is a very deep and philosophical question, I think its perfectly reasonable for people who are not depressed to still come to the conclusion that they don't want to create more life since life itself is too difficult. Even in a best case scenario of being born to a rich, loving family in some prosperous democracy you still have to deal with yours and everyone you loves mortality. I think there's another interesting issue that may be going on - people postpone having kids more and more, many start seriously considering it in their late 30s. That's an age where most people also start feeling the squeeze of midlife - ill parents you need to take care of, sometimes your own health starting to decline a bit etc. It's not surprising some people give up on kids.

satvikpendem 3y ago

You are rich enough that raising a child is no longer a major expense for you, is this not the exception that proves the parent commenter's rule, then? Most are not so lucky as you.

themaninthedark 3y ago
There are a large number of people who make significantly less than SWE here that have and raise children. Rural Appalachia is one example.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  Appalachia is much cheaper than SF, so one can make less and still have a good time raising their kids. It's not about absolute income, it's about purchasing power parity between areas of a country or world.
RestlessMind 3y ago
Poor people have more children, just fyi

wiseowise 3y ago

Implying that someone is depressed and need to see therapist because their life vision differs from your is extremely ignorant and offensive. Especially when original point isn’t controversial at all.

ninkendo 3y ago
They didn’t suggest therapy because of the point about not wanting kids. They suggested therapy because of the point about life being nothing but challenge and hardship, misery, etc. I think it’s not controversial to point out that therapy might help with that.
TheHappyOddish 3y ago
It would be, but they didn't. I assume this was the reference point for that comment: > life is nothing but challenges and hardships. I refuse to throw a newborn life into this hellscape.

hotpotamus 3y ago

I've spoken to therapists nearly my entire life (another expense you may be on the hook for as a parent, like my parents were), and no therapy or drug has ever been able to allow me to find any meaning in life. It's not a struggle I have any interest in passing down to another. Which gets at a question I often have for those in these threads - what would you do if you had a child who was so depressed that they're unable to live independently?

sokoloff 3y ago
Maybe there is no meaning in it, at least in some people’s worldview. Perhaps the optimal path for people who feel that way is to enjoy the good parts until it comes to an end?
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Yes, it's quite apparent in peoples' art - from Voltaire's "Candide" to Rick and Morty, my favorite example would be when Morty says, "Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV". When Douglas Adams said that the answer to life, the universe, and everything is "42", it was pretty obvious that he was saying that the entire question is just absurd. Enjoying what time is left is indeed my goal, and perhaps what a stoic or existentialist would tell you as well. It has not been easy though.
tomp 3y ago
I’m an outlier here probably, I’d support the child in doing almost whatever they wanted to do, including euthanasia.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Thank you for this response. Outlier though it may surely well be, I find it lovely in a way though I doubt any parent (and indeed most humans) would actually be able to follow through with the extreme example given.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago

rs999gti 3y ago

> hellscape If you come from or live in a western country, you have no idea how good your life is. And how you have to make up problems because real problems have been done away by your society. Real poor people in Asia and Africa would give anything to be poor people where you live.

tomp 3y ago
you replied to the wrong comment LOL
InSteady 3y ago
Ah, the classic "there are starving children in Africa so your feelings and perceptions are invalid."
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Subjective wellbeing means that everyone thinks they need 10% more to be happy.

munksbeer 3y ago

> I’m a parent, I disagree. I might have thought in my 20s that having kids is expensive, but in my 30s I make so much money that is not an issue. Buying a house, that is expensive :) You're contradicting yourself. I'm a dad of two. Kids are extremely expensive and the largest expense is needing a large enough house in an area with good schools (UK here). That alone adds extra hundreds of thousands to your cost of living.

tomp 3y ago
No, it’s orthogonal. My 2 cousins grew up in a one-bedroom flat of 50m2. On the other hand, I would have wanted a larger flat / house even if I remained childless and/or single. Schooling in the UK is indeed a fuckup of epic proportions that I luckily don’t need to get involved with, but homeschooling is an option, right? The alternatives are getting better and better, with improved technology etc.