6 ms·

Late, but welcome. I wonder why there isn't already a law or protocol that precludes a law enforcement body from taking action against an organization that is i

Late, but welcome. I wonder why there isn't already a law or protocol that precludes a law enforcement body from taking action against an organization that is investigating it, i.e. why not have another, independent body of law enforcement professionals bring charges etc. (if appropriate) against that organization after a thorough, impartial review of why those charges are being pursued.

smabie 3y ago
Yes, more layers on police will surely solve this problem
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Control behavior by regulating the intermediary Most police accountability discussion are binary ideas, false dilemmas When you can easily ignore the police officer themself and create triggers that affect other people. Officer does something sketchy? Massive lien on the entire pension fund. That’ll make the people in the department keep each other in check. Make the consequence for not crossing the “thin blue line” greater. There are lots of intermediaries vulnerable to this concept when looking at it this way.
  - psd1 3y ago
    Turns out that the police will police themselves, given the appropriate incentive: https://www.reddit.com/r/pettyrevenge/comments/16oe5l9/who_watches_the_watchmen_the_barista/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pettyrevenge/comments/16oe5l9/who_w...
    - yieldcrv 3y ago
      Great, yes treat police as nodes in a network. And regulate the nearby nodes and how those nodes are connected. Graph theory. Can’t ever get something besides a “justified” ruling on the violent action the police officer did? Well prosecute the partner for giving a different instruction to the civilian that conflicted with the other officer’s that needlessly escalated the situation. The police report doesnt match the video footage? Prosecute that for both the officer and the partner. Dont worry that the DA is going to rule the violent action justified, or that the prosecutor is going to be biased in telling juries what to do so that they always reach a justified verdict. You can still pin these procedural things on them as straight up crimes, or liens on the pension fund. I can think of many permutations of this. Use “broken windows theory” logic for civil and criminal sanctions on police officers. Itll fix itself nationwide overnight. Everybody can still “fear for their life” as a foolproof legal argument for split second violence, but they might fear their finances more. This satisfies partisan positions.
- skissane 3y ago
  We have "more layers" in some states of Australia. For example, here in the state of New South Wales, we have the New South Wales Police (our state police – Australia doesn't have independent local police forces, only federal and state/territory police), who are policed by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (LECC), who in turn are policed by the Inspector of the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (ILECC), who in turn is policed by the NSW Ombudsman. And all three of the LECC, the ILECC, and the Ombudsman are accountable to the Parliamentary Joint Committee. It isn't a perfect system and it doesn't solve everything, but it is better than not having it. I think having so many independent local police forces in the US increases the risk of politicisation and corruption. If the Australian model was adopted (no independent local police, only state police), it would lead to greater professionalism and professional leadership, who would be less likely to engage in these kind of outrageous abuses, and face greater consequences if they did
  - Amezarak 3y ago
    Australian police also raid media outlets. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51526607 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51526607 Decreasing democratic accountability by centralizing control and installing appointees does not improve things, except sometimes in the very short term, if the political establishment is, for example, set on "reforming" an institution. It's also my experience that the press, though still often fawning over (local) governments in the US, is much more adversarial than it is in other developed Western countries, which sweep a lot under the rug.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Regularly? Really? That's the standout case that everybody was in an uproar about .. a 2019 raid regarding a 2017 news story that was alleged to have been sourced from classified military documents from a war zone. You'd have a point if this was a common occurence, which it isn't. You'd have a point if this hadn't rippled backwards and forwards between multiple levels of media coverage and legal engagement, which it did. You'd have a point if this was raiding journalists over trivial petty personal small town shit, which it wasn't. What you have here is occassional line crossing not swept under a rug, in a full media and legal spotlight .. given that it's impossible to stop line crossing, it counts as success to have such things made public and investigated.
hn_version_0023 3y ago
At some point humanity may be forced to answer the question "who polices the police?"
- lazystar 3y ago
  Police police Police police police police Police police.
  - hn_version_0023 3y ago
    It’s turtles all the way down.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  What's wrong with a little bit of Rock Paper Scissors structure?

smabie 3y ago

Yes, more layers on police will surely solve this problem

yieldcrv 3y ago
Control behavior by regulating the intermediary Most police accountability discussion are binary ideas, false dilemmas When you can easily ignore the police officer themself and create triggers that affect other people. Officer does something sketchy? Massive lien on the entire pension fund. That’ll make the people in the department keep each other in check. Make the consequence for not crossing the “thin blue line” greater. There are lots of intermediaries vulnerable to this concept when looking at it this way.
- psd1 3y ago
  Turns out that the police will police themselves, given the appropriate incentive: https://www.reddit.com/r/pettyrevenge/comments/16oe5l9/who_watches_the_watchmen_the_barista/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pettyrevenge/comments/16oe5l9/who_w...
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    Great, yes treat police as nodes in a network. And regulate the nearby nodes and how those nodes are connected. Graph theory. Can’t ever get something besides a “justified” ruling on the violent action the police officer did? Well prosecute the partner for giving a different instruction to the civilian that conflicted with the other officer’s that needlessly escalated the situation. The police report doesnt match the video footage? Prosecute that for both the officer and the partner. Dont worry that the DA is going to rule the violent action justified, or that the prosecutor is going to be biased in telling juries what to do so that they always reach a justified verdict. You can still pin these procedural things on them as straight up crimes, or liens on the pension fund. I can think of many permutations of this. Use “broken windows theory” logic for civil and criminal sanctions on police officers. Itll fix itself nationwide overnight. Everybody can still “fear for their life” as a foolproof legal argument for split second violence, but they might fear their finances more. This satisfies partisan positions.
skissane 3y ago
We have "more layers" in some states of Australia. For example, here in the state of New South Wales, we have the New South Wales Police (our state police – Australia doesn't have independent local police forces, only federal and state/territory police), who are policed by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (LECC), who in turn are policed by the Inspector of the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (ILECC), who in turn is policed by the NSW Ombudsman. And all three of the LECC, the ILECC, and the Ombudsman are accountable to the Parliamentary Joint Committee. It isn't a perfect system and it doesn't solve everything, but it is better than not having it. I think having so many independent local police forces in the US increases the risk of politicisation and corruption. If the Australian model was adopted (no independent local police, only state police), it would lead to greater professionalism and professional leadership, who would be less likely to engage in these kind of outrageous abuses, and face greater consequences if they did
- Amezarak 3y ago
  Australian police also raid media outlets. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51526607 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51526607 Decreasing democratic accountability by centralizing control and installing appointees does not improve things, except sometimes in the very short term, if the political establishment is, for example, set on "reforming" an institution. It's also my experience that the press, though still often fawning over (local) governments in the US, is much more adversarial than it is in other developed Western countries, which sweep a lot under the rug.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Regularly? Really? That's the standout case that everybody was in an uproar about .. a 2019 raid regarding a 2017 news story that was alleged to have been sourced from classified military documents from a war zone. You'd have a point if this was a common occurence, which it isn't. You'd have a point if this hadn't rippled backwards and forwards between multiple levels of media coverage and legal engagement, which it did. You'd have a point if this was raiding journalists over trivial petty personal small town shit, which it wasn't. What you have here is occassional line crossing not swept under a rug, in a full media and legal spotlight .. given that it's impossible to stop line crossing, it counts as success to have such things made public and investigated.

hn_version_0023 3y ago

At some point humanity may be forced to answer the question "who polices the police?"

lazystar 3y ago
Police police Police police police police Police police.
- hn_version_0023 3y ago
  It’s turtles all the way down.
threatofrain 3y ago
What's wrong with a little bit of Rock Paper Scissors structure?