4 ms·

It is one of the biggest scandal of our time related to software. I ... want to recommend learning more about it but only do so with a strong stomach. Numerous

by di4na 3y ago

It is one of the biggest scandal of our time related to software. I ... want to recommend learning more about it but only do so with a strong stomach. Numerous people that rabbithole into this case end up running to a nearby bucket. It is... not pretty.

zelos 3y ago
I agree, I find it hard to read about because it makes me so angry. Four people driven to suicide, hundreds of lives ruined. It took them so long to hold all the inquiries and decide on compensation that dozens have died before being acquitted or receiving compensation.
- di4na 3y ago
  And that is only the one we know of. There are thousands of cases that are hidden in the bowels of the post office court system Oh and the compensation are uh... let say hard to get the money for.
  - andrewaylett 3y ago
    And I've yet to hear mention of the people who weren't prosecuted because they paid the excess out of their own pocket. From the stories I have read, it seems that many who were prosecuted had tried that but ran out of money. Many more must have successfully dealt with the "shortfall" and are surely due their own restitution now? Every transaction the system touched should be inspected, because I'm sure there were plenty of sub-postmasters who took the "shortfall" at face value and paid up without even thinking about questioning the system.
    - di4na 3y ago
      Yeah, there are schemes on this and Sir Wyn Williams seems keen and driven to make his enquiry as large as needed. So there is some hope we will learn more. But let's be clear here. Nothing can compensate the reality of what these people had to deal with.
cf141q5325 3y ago
Its a major problem with many of such issues. Some stuff is just really horrible, often even without any clear approach of how to fix it. It then gets even more problematic if people react to this by retreating into easy stories that act as mental fig leaves. Especially once these leads to clearly dysfunctional attempts to solve the issue, making the situation even worse for those effected.
- di4na 3y ago
  I mean sure, but it is also ok to delegate handling these to people with the proper psychological support.
  - cf141q5325 3y ago
    Determining who to trust with this (on what topics) seems to be an incredibly hard problem with no obvious solution. And unfortunately a lot of people either seem to delegate to those that make nice sounding promises or ignore the issues all together. Even the statement you just made could always turn out to be a "noble lie" aimed preserving personal sanity at horrible cost for others. After all, having psychological support, or being able to deal with this, says nothing about what kind of solution they would produce. In all likelihood those people to delegate to will turn out to be in large parts depressed, detached or psychopaths. So i dont see a way around verification. Having agency in a society ( through democracy, markets, shaping narratives in discussions and many other ways) might just require adults who deal with the horrible aspects society produces in a responsible manner. Which includes not designing solutions for a false peace of mind. After all, you yourself (as in every individual) are the one responsible for the consequences you produce. Personally i hope this might be a matter of outer alignment, as in a problem of not agreeing on shared goals that you can apply to problem solving in a coordinated manner. Which has to include the ability to verify process and outcome (which unfortunately in itself are highly safety critical) and the unwillingness to accept false but pleasant conclusions with high costs for others.

by di4na 3y ago

zelos 3y ago

I agree, I find it hard to read about because it makes me so angry. Four people driven to suicide, hundreds of lives ruined. It took them so long to hold all the inquiries and decide on compensation that dozens have died before being acquitted or receiving compensation.

di4na 3y ago
And that is only the one we know of. There are thousands of cases that are hidden in the bowels of the post office court system Oh and the compensation are uh... let say hard to get the money for.
- andrewaylett 3y ago
  And I've yet to hear mention of the people who weren't prosecuted because they paid the excess out of their own pocket. From the stories I have read, it seems that many who were prosecuted had tried that but ran out of money. Many more must have successfully dealt with the "shortfall" and are surely due their own restitution now? Every transaction the system touched should be inspected, because I'm sure there were plenty of sub-postmasters who took the "shortfall" at face value and paid up without even thinking about questioning the system.
  - di4na 3y ago
    Yeah, there are schemes on this and Sir Wyn Williams seems keen and driven to make his enquiry as large as needed. So there is some hope we will learn more. But let's be clear here. Nothing can compensate the reality of what these people had to deal with.

cf141q5325 3y ago

Its a major problem with many of such issues. Some stuff is just really horrible, often even without any clear approach of how to fix it. It then gets even more problematic if people react to this by retreating into easy stories that act as mental fig leaves. Especially once these leads to clearly dysfunctional attempts to solve the issue, making the situation even worse for those effected.

di4na 3y ago
I mean sure, but it is also ok to delegate handling these to people with the proper psychological support.
- cf141q5325 3y ago
  Determining who to trust with this (on what topics) seems to be an incredibly hard problem with no obvious solution. And unfortunately a lot of people either seem to delegate to those that make nice sounding promises or ignore the issues all together. Even the statement you just made could always turn out to be a "noble lie" aimed preserving personal sanity at horrible cost for others. After all, having psychological support, or being able to deal with this, says nothing about what kind of solution they would produce. In all likelihood those people to delegate to will turn out to be in large parts depressed, detached or psychopaths. So i dont see a way around verification. Having agency in a society ( through democracy, markets, shaping narratives in discussions and many other ways) might just require adults who deal with the horrible aspects society produces in a responsible manner. Which includes not designing solutions for a false peace of mind. After all, you yourself (as in every individual) are the one responsible for the consequences you produce. Personally i hope this might be a matter of outer alignment, as in a problem of not agreeing on shared goals that you can apply to problem solving in a coordinated manner. Which has to include the ability to verify process and outcome (which unfortunately in itself are highly safety critical) and the unwillingness to accept false but pleasant conclusions with high costs for others.