6 ms·

> The economic cost I'm pretty sure of: Research has shown (but I won't pretend I can cite it) that immigrants are net contributors. That very much depends on

by wsc981 3y ago

> The economic cost I'm pretty sure of: Research has shown (but I won't pretend I can cite it) that immigrants are net contributors. That very much depends on immigration policies and the way a welfare state is setup. I am sure that countries with strict policies that mainly allow people to immigrate that a country can be sure these people can contribute to the economy, in such cases sure. But some countries have very lax policies and (in the name of humanitarian aid) allow many people in from poor areas of the world. At the same time some of these countries might have a large welfare state, with benefits like free or cheap healthcare, schooling, state pensions, medical benefits either free or heavily subsidized, unemployment benefits, etcetera. For those countries immigration is a huge cost. Many immigrants moving to such countries will never (be able to) work. But they will use a large amount of resources from the welfare state. And perhaps such countries hope children of these kinds of immigrants will be a net benefit, but only time will tell. Because one additional hurdle is that for many of such countries it’s not expected (and there is little push) for immigrants to integrate into society. For these countries unrestricted mass immigration will mean the dismantling of the welfare state. As there are too many users of welfare services and not enough people paying taxes to finance the welfare state. Many Northern European countries fall onto this group.

wolverine876 3y ago
Do you have evidence? At least I read a study (that I'm not citing, admittedly).
- jgb1984 3y ago
  "The total cost of immigration for the period 1995-2019 for the Netherlands was 400 billion euros." Quote from the conclusion of one of the studies mentioned here: https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researchers%20at%20the%20University%20of%20Amsterdam%20also%20looked%20to,are%20of%20non%2DWestern%20origin https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researc.... I can only speak for my own region in western Europe (Benelux / Germany / France), for us mass immigration especially from non-EU countries has a very high financial and social cost. So high that both in Belgium and the Netherlands there is a large majority to be found in favor of drastically reducing immigration, recent polls show. However in almost all west European countries you've got governments doing the exact opposite of the people's will. In my own country, Belgium, we've got a very generous social security system and as such we attract a lot of immigration that is not interested in working (and/or simply very low skilled, often illiterate). Among non-EU origins we're at 44.5 % inactivity, not studying nor working, (!!!!!) which is the worst score in all of Europe. Belgium itself is of course partially to blame because our social security system is too flexible, too generous and does not push to work. Mass immigration from strongly divergent cultures is damaging western society, causing higher poverty, more crime, and rampant feelings of alienation, tearing at the fabric of social values and cohesion. Look at Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden... Go for a stroll in Brussels or Frankfurt, have a look at the numerous ghettos there. Mass immigration is a lose-lose thing, both for the host country and for the newcomers who often sign up for a life in abject poverty.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    The single biggest irony in US politics (the surface level politics, I don't mean actual politics) is that the catholic cultures the so-called mexicans are coming from have more in common with the conservatives trying to keep them out than the liberals who want to let them in...
    - runsWphotons 3y ago
      They really don't though. Conservatives have a lot more in common with liberals than either do with central americans.
      - whatshisface 3y ago
        Maybe if you measure it by what hit radio songs they remember from childhood, but the things most people would consider more fundamental paint a different picture. If you take this source I haven't vetted[0] (I'm getting this from common knowledge, not surveys, to be honest) the evidence seems pretty clear that immigration from south of the border is actually supporting our most longstanding conservative cultural institution, far from "diluting" or "eroding" it. If any reader is curious, the irony only developed around the time a certain presidential campaign normalized anti-immigrant rhetoric; until then the "old conservatives" were fully aware of the importance of immigration to business owners and the lack of any real cultural incompatibility and never took any steps to reduce it. They sided very much on the elimination of the welfare state which was the solution they saw for the supposed cost issue (highly questionable to begin with, in a country with as little in the way of social programs as the US after the 1980s drew to a close. In a system designed for people that thought social security should depend on the number of hours you have worked, it is hard to imagine what costs they'd be objecting to.) The way the shift in alignment was carried out always struck me as a sobering example of the shortness of memories, or the impermanence of the public's convictions. [0] https://www.prb.org/resources/immigration-gives-catholicism-a-boost-in-the-united-states/ https://www.prb.org/resources/immigration-gives-catholicism-...
        3y ago
- runsWphotons 3y ago
  In most northern European countries the only economically productive immigrants are from other european or american populations. It depends where the immigration comes from.
  - anon291 3y ago
    Honestly, America is an outlier in how well we integrate people. From my perspective at least I was shocked at how wide the gulf was between native and immigrant in the Nordic countries. Some other countries in the anglosphere also do pretty well including the UK.
    - runsWphotons 3y ago
      Do you think America actually integrates people well? I don't think I agree, outside of a certain strata of more prestigious institutions and firms. I.e. Google may integrate people pretty well to google. But broadly speaking I think we just have a lot of space and the groups move around each other, while being vastly different. It is something tourists comment on, that they stumble into different neighborhoods and feel they are in a totally different place. There are whole sections of my hometown which basically operate in a different language and where everyone has moved out. It doesn't seem like integration to me. I think people just move around each other in America and can afford to do so more.
      - runsWphotons 3y ago
        I do think it is worse in parts of scandanavia and parts of paris for example. But i think neighborhoods in America are fairly segregated and people would choose that even more if possible.(In that sense maybe the government does do somewhat better job by preventing that, idk).
      - anon291 3y ago
        Yes. I mean my parents were immigrants from another country and both their sons married Americans (not even white Americans, but Americans nevertheless) and move to the real 'innards' of America. Also, I have nothing in common with people from my parent's country. Even the food we like from the 'home country' is completely different. I much prefer American-styled ethnic food from my parent's country than anything you'd get there. Unlike most European countries or even Canada though, immigrant Americans consider themselves ... Americans. I mean... my parents are honestly pretty hard core trump supporters and contrary to popular belief, they've been very welcomed at all these supposedly 'racist' events. > It is something tourists comment on, that they stumble into different neighborhoods and feel they are in a totally different place. There are whole sections of my hometown which basically operate in a different language and where everyone has moved out. It doesn't seem like integration to me. I think people just move around each other in America and can afford to do so more. Sure, in the big cities where there are lots of immigrants it can certainly be like that. In the more provincial parts of the country you can go -- as I did -- to Oktoberfest celebrated in an old German town, except all the people who live there are now hispanic, philipino, or mixed whatever and are all happily doing the Polka and drinking beer while saluting the American flag. Also, typically in those 'ethnic' neighborhoods you speak of... people are very patriotic. For example, my brother married into a big hispanic family and some of the older generation definitely speaks Spanish mainly and a lot of the town they live in is primarily Spanish, but they're incredibly patriotic and love America. > It is something tourists comment on, that they stumble into different neighborhoods and feel they are in a totally different place. I totally get why tourists might find it weird, but as a native born American, I stumble into many ethnic enclaves in the US and feel pretty at home. Most people aren't used to that.
- onetimeusename 3y ago
  Yes, in Sweden. Immigrants have a substantially higher unemployment rate https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819060/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819060/ Swedish PM says integration has failed https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-pm-says-integration-immigrants-has-failed-fueled-gang-crime-2022-04-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-pm-says-integra...
- wsc981 3y ago
  > Do you have evidence? At least I read a study (that I'm not citing, admittedly). Sure, but it’s cited in a Dutch newspaper article. You can copy and paste in Google Translate: https://archive.ph/HvG8u https://archive.ph/HvG8u
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  Sweden. Compare its situation to Denmark and Norway. Allowing unrestricted immigration from very culturally different countries with hardly any income/educational requirements seem to have had significant economic, social and political cost.

by wsc981 3y ago

wolverine876 3y ago

Do you have evidence? At least I read a study (that I'm not citing, admittedly).

jgb1984 3y ago
"The total cost of immigration for the period 1995-2019 for the Netherlands was 400 billion euros." Quote from the conclusion of one of the studies mentioned here: https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researchers%20at%20the%20University%20of%20Amsterdam%20also%20looked%20to,are%20of%20non%2DWestern%20origin https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researc.... I can only speak for my own region in western Europe (Benelux / Germany / France), for us mass immigration especially from non-EU countries has a very high financial and social cost. So high that both in Belgium and the Netherlands there is a large majority to be found in favor of drastically reducing immigration, recent polls show. However in almost all west European countries you've got governments doing the exact opposite of the people's will. In my own country, Belgium, we've got a very generous social security system and as such we attract a lot of immigration that is not interested in working (and/or simply very low skilled, often illiterate). Among non-EU origins we're at 44.5 % inactivity, not studying nor working, (!!!!!) which is the worst score in all of Europe. Belgium itself is of course partially to blame because our social security system is too flexible, too generous and does not push to work. Mass immigration from strongly divergent cultures is damaging western society, causing higher poverty, more crime, and rampant feelings of alienation, tearing at the fabric of social values and cohesion. Look at Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden... Go for a stroll in Brussels or Frankfurt, have a look at the numerous ghettos there. Mass immigration is a lose-lose thing, both for the host country and for the newcomers who often sign up for a life in abject poverty.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  The single biggest irony in US politics (the surface level politics, I don't mean actual politics) is that the catholic cultures the so-called mexicans are coming from have more in common with the conservatives trying to keep them out than the liberals who want to let them in...
  - runsWphotons 3y ago
    They really don't though. Conservatives have a lot more in common with liberals than either do with central americans.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      Maybe if you measure it by what hit radio songs they remember from childhood, but the things most people would consider more fundamental paint a different picture. If you take this source I haven't vetted[0] (I'm getting this from common knowledge, not surveys, to be honest) the evidence seems pretty clear that immigration from south of the border is actually supporting our most longstanding conservative cultural institution, far from "diluting" or "eroding" it. If any reader is curious, the irony only developed around the time a certain presidential campaign normalized anti-immigrant rhetoric; until then the "old conservatives" were fully aware of the importance of immigration to business owners and the lack of any real cultural incompatibility and never took any steps to reduce it. They sided very much on the elimination of the welfare state which was the solution they saw for the supposed cost issue (highly questionable to begin with, in a country with as little in the way of social programs as the US after the 1980s drew to a close. In a system designed for people that thought social security should depend on the number of hours you have worked, it is hard to imagine what costs they'd be objecting to.) The way the shift in alignment was carried out always struck me as a sobering example of the shortness of memories, or the impermanence of the public's convictions. [0] https://www.prb.org/resources/immigration-gives-catholicism-a-boost-in-the-united-states/ https://www.prb.org/resources/immigration-gives-catholicism-...
      - 3y ago
runsWphotons 3y ago
In most northern European countries the only economically productive immigrants are from other european or american populations. It depends where the immigration comes from.
- anon291 3y ago
  Honestly, America is an outlier in how well we integrate people. From my perspective at least I was shocked at how wide the gulf was between native and immigrant in the Nordic countries. Some other countries in the anglosphere also do pretty well including the UK.
  - runsWphotons 3y ago
    Do you think America actually integrates people well? I don't think I agree, outside of a certain strata of more prestigious institutions and firms. I.e. Google may integrate people pretty well to google. But broadly speaking I think we just have a lot of space and the groups move around each other, while being vastly different. It is something tourists comment on, that they stumble into different neighborhoods and feel they are in a totally different place. There are whole sections of my hometown which basically operate in a different language and where everyone has moved out. It doesn't seem like integration to me. I think people just move around each other in America and can afford to do so more.
    - runsWphotons 3y ago
      I do think it is worse in parts of scandanavia and parts of paris for example. But i think neighborhoods in America are fairly segregated and people would choose that even more if possible.(In that sense maybe the government does do somewhat better job by preventing that, idk).
    - anon291 3y ago
      Yes. I mean my parents were immigrants from another country and both their sons married Americans (not even white Americans, but Americans nevertheless) and move to the real 'innards' of America. Also, I have nothing in common with people from my parent's country. Even the food we like from the 'home country' is completely different. I much prefer American-styled ethnic food from my parent's country than anything you'd get there. Unlike most European countries or even Canada though, immigrant Americans consider themselves ... Americans. I mean... my parents are honestly pretty hard core trump supporters and contrary to popular belief, they've been very welcomed at all these supposedly 'racist' events. > It is something tourists comment on, that they stumble into different neighborhoods and feel they are in a totally different place. There are whole sections of my hometown which basically operate in a different language and where everyone has moved out. It doesn't seem like integration to me. I think people just move around each other in America and can afford to do so more. Sure, in the big cities where there are lots of immigrants it can certainly be like that. In the more provincial parts of the country you can go -- as I did -- to Oktoberfest celebrated in an old German town, except all the people who live there are now hispanic, philipino, or mixed whatever and are all happily doing the Polka and drinking beer while saluting the American flag. Also, typically in those 'ethnic' neighborhoods you speak of... people are very patriotic. For example, my brother married into a big hispanic family and some of the older generation definitely speaks Spanish mainly and a lot of the town they live in is primarily Spanish, but they're incredibly patriotic and love America. > It is something tourists comment on, that they stumble into different neighborhoods and feel they are in a totally different place. I totally get why tourists might find it weird, but as a native born American, I stumble into many ethnic enclaves in the US and feel pretty at home. Most people aren't used to that.
onetimeusename 3y ago
Yes, in Sweden. Immigrants have a substantially higher unemployment rate https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819060/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819060/ Swedish PM says integration has failed https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-pm-says-integration-immigrants-has-failed-fueled-gang-crime-2022-04-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-pm-says-integra...
wsc981 3y ago
> Do you have evidence? At least I read a study (that I'm not citing, admittedly). Sure, but it’s cited in a Dutch newspaper article. You can copy and paste in Google Translate: https://archive.ph/HvG8u https://archive.ph/HvG8u
ffgjgf1 3y ago
Sweden. Compare its situation to Denmark and Norway. Allowing unrestricted immigration from very culturally different countries with hardly any income/educational requirements seem to have had significant economic, social and political cost.