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The same thing appears in the Bible so forgive my skepticism that Muslims will be unique among followers of Abrahamic religions in not facing the same pressures

The same thing appears in the Bible so forgive my skepticism that Muslims will be unique among followers of Abrahamic religions in not facing the same pressures of the modern world everyone else does.

teaearlgraycold 3y ago
I think it’s likely that within a few decades they go through a similar cultural change to what Christians went through.
johnnymorgan 3y ago
And you would be correct, if people drilled down into the data you'd see the birth rate drops off massively by 2nd/3rd gen when they hit the modern world. It's the Amish and Mennonites that seem to retain people well by having it be optional. America is more likely to be Amish than anything else if we got solely by the trend. I'd say there is a lot more too it than that
- teaearlgraycold 3y ago
  Good old linear extrapolation
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Yeah, if you're willing to make a cloister and isolate your children it might work. Not that many groups looking to live that way though.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  > It's the Amish and Mennonites that seem to retain people well by having it be optional. Both groups have many instances of rape happening that much of the wider world is not aware of, as they are cloistered societies, so, combined with the fact that many stay silent due to fear of retaliation, those are not the best examples to use. https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48265703 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48265703 https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-child-sex-abuse-in-amish-communities https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-...
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    I think that’s part and parcel of any similar project.
lm28469 3y ago
The trajectory of Christianity and Islam in France and other western European countries are diametrically opposed though. For various reasons Muslim population in france grew form basically 0% to ~10% in 50 years, in the same time the number of baptisms was divided by 2
- sidibe 3y ago
  The vast majority of children of French Muslims aren't religious.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Is one of those "various reasons" that many of them are immigrants? I don't think you're going to see French-born Muslims behave the same way as their parents.
rayiner 3y ago
There’s not anything nearly as strong in the Bible. American Muslims are more affluent and highly educated than the average American, but also have significantly higher fertility rates (2.4 in 2017, versus 2.1 overall). Also, it’s not the “modern world.” The US fertility rate was above 3.0 the same decade we put a man on the moon.
- verbify 3y ago
  What about: > Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it Genesis 1:28 In Orthodox Judaism (from the Mishna/Talmud) this takes the status of a commandment to try to have kids.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them. Ps. 127:3-5
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  > American Muslims are more affluent and highly educated than the average American Is this not just due to the immigrant effect, ie the only ones who can afford to immigrate (legally, at least) are those who are relatively rich (which correlates with high education levels) in their countries? It takes money to shore up a visa and buy a plane ticket, that most individuals in poorer countries would not be able to afford. American Hindus (including Indians), East Asians etc are also more affluent and highly educated than the average American, for the same reasons.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    It is not necessarily "rich", but you're on the right track. During the 70s and 80s, US immigration policy basically filtered/let through mostly people who came here for college or higher education. That was the case for India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh at least, I believe. So of course the South Asian population here skews successful and educated. I am not sure what immigration policy was like for Arabs.
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
lots of things appear in the bible that have just sort of been dropped over centuries, I also think Christians as a group are more splintered than Muslims - but that may be my lack of knowledge on this front - I certainly believe fundamentalist Christians are into this thing but not sure what percentage of each set [Christian, Muslim] has this as a core tenet.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  There is no Jewish or Christian denomination that rejects Genesis or Psalms.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    1. that seems unlikely given the amount of denominations that call themselves 'Christian', unless your statement is tautological, but OK 2. explicit rejection is not quite the same as not following all things in common practice of the religion. I know people classed as Christians who do not at any rate follow the whole be fruitful and multiply guidance.
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      1. You’re welcome to name one then. The Marcionites would qualify if that movement weren’t extinguished thousands of years ago. All modern Christian denominations more or less agree on points that were decided that early on in the history of Christianity. 2. Right, most people do not follow this in practice even if such commands appear in their religious scriptures. You might remember that the whole point of the comparison was my contention that we can expect something similar to happen with Muslims.
      - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
        Ok back to point two - I agree that it appears in scripture, I made it sound like individuals don't follow the religion which is true, but also I believe there are denominations of Christianity that don't push it. It is one thing to hear go do this constantly from the pulpit (hence my reference to fundamentalist Christianity which often does this) and decide as an individual not to go do it, it is another thing to never hear it pushed from the pulpit, read it in the book, and not care. This goes back to my statement > I certainly believe fundamentalist Christians are into this thing but not sure what percentage of each set [Christian, Muslim] has this as a core tenet. by core tenet I do not mean something written in your text and agreed that this is an important part, but something that is hammered on all the time. What does "is hammered on all the time" mean? If a priest spends lots of time saying that people should go out and have children and find other Christians to marry to make a Christian nation I would consider that really hammering the issue. IF they don't then that church doesn't care. If pretty much none of the leaders of that denomination do so then I would say it is not a core tenet of the denomination. So the question is if it is a core tenet of Muslim denominations? Which I don't know how many there are of that, I get the feeling they are in some ways much less fractured but perhaps in other ways it might be they are more fractured in belief systems than the large set of peoples normally called "Christian" If however it is a core tenet then my belief is that core tenets do not change in a single generation, I would think several generations would need to happen before the religious leaders were not saying it all the time and the followers were thus not feeling obligated to follow. Sure in three generations I would expect alignment with other groups, by and large. This belief of mine is however only a belief as I am not aware of any kind of large scale study in memetics or (perhaps to get away from a loaded term) idea transmission in multi-generational hierarchical organizations which is what a religion would be. I am also willing to believe I am totally wrong here - for example if one found a religion that went from salvation by works to salvation by faith alone in one generation among a large Christian denomination then I would say - huh, I am definitely wrong and it means large scale hierarchical organizations / religions can be changed in one generation (although I would expect to see charismatic leadership involved now that I am considering the idea)
Exoristos 3y ago
You're talking about the religion that gave the West monasticism.

teaearlgraycold 3y ago

I think it’s likely that within a few decades they go through a similar cultural change to what Christians went through.

johnnymorgan 3y ago

And you would be correct, if people drilled down into the data you'd see the birth rate drops off massively by 2nd/3rd gen when they hit the modern world. It's the Amish and Mennonites that seem to retain people well by having it be optional. America is more likely to be Amish than anything else if we got solely by the trend. I'd say there is a lot more too it than that

teaearlgraycold 3y ago
Good old linear extrapolation
emodendroket 3y ago
Yeah, if you're willing to make a cloister and isolate your children it might work. Not that many groups looking to live that way though.
satvikpendem 3y ago
> It's the Amish and Mennonites that seem to retain people well by having it be optional. Both groups have many instances of rape happening that much of the wider world is not aware of, as they are cloistered societies, so, combined with the fact that many stay silent due to fear of retaliation, those are not the best examples to use. https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48265703 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48265703 https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-child-sex-abuse-in-amish-communities https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-...
- emodendroket 3y ago
  I think that’s part and parcel of any similar project.

lm28469 3y ago

The trajectory of Christianity and Islam in France and other western European countries are diametrically opposed though. For various reasons Muslim population in france grew form basically 0% to ~10% in 50 years, in the same time the number of baptisms was divided by 2

sidibe 3y ago
The vast majority of children of French Muslims aren't religious.
emodendroket 3y ago
Is one of those "various reasons" that many of them are immigrants? I don't think you're going to see French-born Muslims behave the same way as their parents.

rayiner 3y ago

There’s not anything nearly as strong in the Bible. American Muslims are more affluent and highly educated than the average American, but also have significantly higher fertility rates (2.4 in 2017, versus 2.1 overall). Also, it’s not the “modern world.” The US fertility rate was above 3.0 the same decade we put a man on the moon.

verbify 3y ago
What about: > Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it Genesis 1:28 In Orthodox Judaism (from the Mishna/Talmud) this takes the status of a commandment to try to have kids.
emodendroket 3y ago
Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them. Ps. 127:3-5
satvikpendem 3y ago
> American Muslims are more affluent and highly educated than the average American Is this not just due to the immigrant effect, ie the only ones who can afford to immigrate (legally, at least) are those who are relatively rich (which correlates with high education levels) in their countries? It takes money to shore up a visa and buy a plane ticket, that most individuals in poorer countries would not be able to afford. American Hindus (including Indians), East Asians etc are also more affluent and highly educated than the average American, for the same reasons.
- catlover76 3y ago
  It is not necessarily "rich", but you're on the right track. During the 70s and 80s, US immigration policy basically filtered/let through mostly people who came here for college or higher education. That was the case for India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh at least, I believe. So of course the South Asian population here skews successful and educated. I am not sure what immigration policy was like for Arabs.

bryanrasmussen 3y ago

lots of things appear in the bible that have just sort of been dropped over centuries, I also think Christians as a group are more splintered than Muslims - but that may be my lack of knowledge on this front - I certainly believe fundamentalist Christians are into this thing but not sure what percentage of each set [Christian, Muslim] has this as a core tenet.

emodendroket 3y ago
There is no Jewish or Christian denomination that rejects Genesis or Psalms.
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  1. that seems unlikely given the amount of denominations that call themselves 'Christian', unless your statement is tautological, but OK 2. explicit rejection is not quite the same as not following all things in common practice of the religion. I know people classed as Christians who do not at any rate follow the whole be fruitful and multiply guidance.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    1. You’re welcome to name one then. The Marcionites would qualify if that movement weren’t extinguished thousands of years ago. All modern Christian denominations more or less agree on points that were decided that early on in the history of Christianity. 2. Right, most people do not follow this in practice even if such commands appear in their religious scriptures. You might remember that the whole point of the comparison was my contention that we can expect something similar to happen with Muslims.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      Ok back to point two - I agree that it appears in scripture, I made it sound like individuals don't follow the religion which is true, but also I believe there are denominations of Christianity that don't push it. It is one thing to hear go do this constantly from the pulpit (hence my reference to fundamentalist Christianity which often does this) and decide as an individual not to go do it, it is another thing to never hear it pushed from the pulpit, read it in the book, and not care. This goes back to my statement > I certainly believe fundamentalist Christians are into this thing but not sure what percentage of each set [Christian, Muslim] has this as a core tenet. by core tenet I do not mean something written in your text and agreed that this is an important part, but something that is hammered on all the time. What does "is hammered on all the time" mean? If a priest spends lots of time saying that people should go out and have children and find other Christians to marry to make a Christian nation I would consider that really hammering the issue. IF they don't then that church doesn't care. If pretty much none of the leaders of that denomination do so then I would say it is not a core tenet of the denomination. So the question is if it is a core tenet of Muslim denominations? Which I don't know how many there are of that, I get the feeling they are in some ways much less fractured but perhaps in other ways it might be they are more fractured in belief systems than the large set of peoples normally called "Christian" If however it is a core tenet then my belief is that core tenets do not change in a single generation, I would think several generations would need to happen before the religious leaders were not saying it all the time and the followers were thus not feeling obligated to follow. Sure in three generations I would expect alignment with other groups, by and large. This belief of mine is however only a belief as I am not aware of any kind of large scale study in memetics or (perhaps to get away from a loaded term) idea transmission in multi-generational hierarchical organizations which is what a religion would be. I am also willing to believe I am totally wrong here - for example if one found a religion that went from salvation by works to salvation by faith alone in one generation among a large Christian denomination then I would say - huh, I am definitely wrong and it means large scale hierarchical organizations / religions can be changed in one generation (although I would expect to see charismatic leadership involved now that I am considering the idea)

Exoristos 3y ago

You're talking about the religion that gave the West monasticism.