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Keep telling yourself that. Kids can be not just ok, not just good, not just great, but the best thing to happen to you in your life. The studies you refer to

Keep telling yourself that. Kids can be not just ok, not just good, not just great, but the best thing to happen to you in your life. The studies you refer to regard subjective happiness at particularly difficult child rearing years. Anecdata from older childless people, the emptiness of childless life once you’re beyond young adulthood is sobering and incredibly sad. But yeah hold onto those studies that make you feel ok.

Devasta 3y ago
"Can"
Arainach 3y ago
Having children is a lot like religion: I have many friends with children and they're nice people and there is no issue, but there is a certain subset of the population that spends their entire life telling me how I'm an awful person making a huge mistake for not [having children/being religious] and they are utterly insufferable and not worth associating with.
- bequanna 3y ago
  I hear you. But I will also tell you that until you have children of your own, it is difficult to appreciate the value they bring. They are work and require sacrifice but it can be an investment that pays huge dividends for the rest of your life. You’re not a bad person if you don’t want children. I think most people with children trying to convince you to have some are well-meaning and just don’t want childless people to miss out. My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. You will grow to take on the new responsibility. But do it no later than age 40.
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    Having children changes you right quick. It's not just that you have to change therefore you do. No, it's that it just changes you. A 20 year old dad can be much more mature than a 40 year old bachelor, but there's no reason to think that the 20 year old dad will have less fun than the 40 year old bachelor. There are tangos (and I'm sure country western, and other songs) that are all about the protagonist having had all these ladies as a young man, but never a woman, or how they left behind the one woman who was their soul mate just to get laid with lots of others. E.g., Ansiedad, by Juan D'Arienzo[0][1]. Here's Nick Freitas talking about getting married at 19[2]. Be sure to read some of the comments. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHGmN9GTPM [1] https://www.musixmatch.com/es/letras/Juan-D-Arienzo/Ansiedad/traduccion/ingles [2] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u_q8-UNk4TU
    - Arainach 3y ago
      .....and there are plenty of stories of people who got married way too early before they learned who they are and were miserable and got divorced. There are plenty of kids with horror stories of growing up in those loveless households.
      - bequanna 3y ago
        Right. But if you’re mature enough to debate the pros and cons of having children, you hopefully won’t be a bad parent if you do choose have kids.
        cryptonector 3y ago
        When a couple of 20 year olds decides to have children, they're almost certainly not mature enough, but it can and should work out.
        bart_spoon 3y ago
        Why are they most certainly not mature enough. Having children in the 20s or has been the standard for essentially all of human history until the last 30 years, give or take. What is it about modern society that makes human beings less fit for parenthood than every previous generation?
      - cryptonector 3y ago
        Yes, I'm aware. It's taking a chance. Now if the two kids (for, if they are 19, 20, 21, 22, ... they are kids) have had a good education from their parents and relatives and friends, and hopefully also if those people are around and willing to help them, then they should be able to work through difficulties.
  - BeefyMcGhee 3y ago
    Why before 40? Do the kids turn into gremlins if I'm older?
    - bequanna 3y ago
      There are many well-known challenges to conceiving and having a successful pregnancy if the man and especially the woman are near/over than 40.
      - SoftTalker 3y ago
        Really there's often difficulty past 30. Your 20s are the prime years for reproduction, biologically.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    > My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. Uhh this sounds like terrible advice--kids aren't cars that can be returned or sold if it turns out the "small part" was incorrect.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - bequanna 3y ago
      If this is your view of having children, I would suggest you wait. They are not a pet or a piece of personal property. Caring for a child is the biggest responsibility of your life and it will likely not go according to plan. If you’re unable to grow to meet the demands, then it may be best to wait.
      - catlover76 3y ago
        Caring for a pet should be for the pet's life as well, and it offends my moral sensibilities to put pets in a category alongside personal property. I think you misunderstand me though--and I'm not sure how, to be frank, I think what I was saying was pretty clear from the context: Precisely because it's such a huge responsibility, etc., the person to whom I was replying was giving bad advice. They were (basically) suggesting having a kid even if one is unsure about whether one wants to. edit: oh you're the poster to whom I was replying. Above, you said: > My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. You will grow to take on the new responsibility. Now you're turning around and saying "oh no, it's a grave responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly, don't do it if you're not ready".
- md2020 3y ago
  On the other hand, not having kids is also a lot like a religion now. I want kids and have many friends who do not and they’re nice people and there is no issue, but there is a certain subset of the population that spends their entire life telling me how I'm an awful person making a huge mistake for wanting children and they are utterly insufferable and not worth associating with. This is the dominant perspective on the social media that younger generations spend their time on. I’d argue that as a person in their mid 20s today, actually wanting kids is the bizarre position. I often feel alienated for openly stating it among good friends of mine.
temende 3y ago
Given how personally you've taken that off-hand comment, I'm more inclined to believe the OP than your reply.
- lucb1e 3y ago
  I would rather look at the data than at the tone of the comment. The person they were replying to referred to studies; the person you replied to essentially said they love their children and that childless people find emptyness towards the end. I believe both, and both can be true at the same time, especially considering that I've also heard of studies which showed that people tend to diminish past negative experiences. The parent will view the here and now, with happy children that are doing well, and see that all is good and hard work paid off. The childless person may have fewer people around them in later years, but which has a greater sum of total happiness? Being able to do for fifty years whatever your heart desires, or some happy end where someone sees you go and has a lot of pain from that? (I guess the latter might be partially my bias talking, but I truly am trying to view this objectively, like how one can explain both the study and the subjective experience from the person you replied to.)
zabzonk 3y ago
well, if we are going the anecdata route i am 70 and childless and reasonably happy. i suspect i am not alone.
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I’m 66, and never had kids. Never wanted them. Thinking back now, about what my life would be had I had kids with either of my first two mates, seems like a nightmare. I frankly love my life now.
  - malauxyeux 3y ago
    > I frankly love my life now. What's it like?
hotpotamus 3y ago
Seeing children today makes me feel a deep sense of despair. Watching them pushed as hard as possible into schoolwork and extracurriculars from elementary age so that they might have some shot at a decent life; it feels like watching them being fed into a meat grinder (one that I myself went through and would not wish on anyone). And I didn't have to grow up watching the trees die as my local climate changes from a humid sub-tropic coastal plain into a desert; I couldn't imagine being a child looking ahead at decades of climate change - hell, I'm not that old and so it terrifies me as well. I agree that a world without children sounds sad, but with the way things are going, a world with them seems sadder to me.
- bad_user 3y ago
  My father was born into a world in which he had to practice subsistence farming if he didn't go to school. His was the first generation for which school was an option, and as a child he traveled 20 km by foot to the school and back, daily. My grandfather lost both parents since childhood, as back then hospitals were places where people went to die. He later fought in WW2, and lost his land to communists. During those years, he also witnessed the soviet-induced famine. We are literally living humanity’s best years. Children today basically get sad for not having enough time to play Roblox. How sad is it that they have schoolwork to do instead of subsistence farming? And we get sad over climate change while stuffing our faces with cheap and delicious food while the AC is on.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    I’d say the very definition of depression (and trust me, I’m quite the authority on it) is stuffing your face full of cheap carbs while you never leave your house for fear of heatstroke. Sure gives you time to ponder the meaninglessness of it all though, so if that’s your thing, then the world may indeed be headed in your favorite direction. Just ignore the ever rising levels of depression/anxiety/suicide in teens.
    - bad_user 3y ago
      People dying from the elements is at an all time low! As a teenager, my grandfather lost a set of teeth due to the winter's cold, by sleeping in a cold barn, and he described it as a near-death experience. If anything, for many regions of the world, the weather getting hotter may be a relief for the poor that don't have heating in the winter. We have zero reasons to be more depressed than prior generations. If we are depressed, don't you think the constant fear porn from mass-media has more to do with it? PS: it's not just the carbs that are cheaper and more available. It's everything, including meat. Staples of any healthy vegan diet, like green peas, or lentils, weren't even available until ~1960, after industrial agriculture caught on. Never mind the availability of fresh fruits year-round. My grandparents basically lived on a diet of polenta, potatoes, milk, and eggs, as that's what they were able to grow.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
You sound suspiciously emotional about it.

Devasta 3y ago

"Can"

Arainach 3y ago

Having children is a lot like religion: I have many friends with children and they're nice people and there is no issue, but there is a certain subset of the population that spends their entire life telling me how I'm an awful person making a huge mistake for not [having children/being religious] and they are utterly insufferable and not worth associating with.

bequanna 3y ago
I hear you. But I will also tell you that until you have children of your own, it is difficult to appreciate the value they bring. They are work and require sacrifice but it can be an investment that pays huge dividends for the rest of your life. You’re not a bad person if you don’t want children. I think most people with children trying to convince you to have some are well-meaning and just don’t want childless people to miss out. My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. You will grow to take on the new responsibility. But do it no later than age 40.
- cryptonector 3y ago
  Having children changes you right quick. It's not just that you have to change therefore you do. No, it's that it just changes you. A 20 year old dad can be much more mature than a 40 year old bachelor, but there's no reason to think that the 20 year old dad will have less fun than the 40 year old bachelor. There are tangos (and I'm sure country western, and other songs) that are all about the protagonist having had all these ladies as a young man, but never a woman, or how they left behind the one woman who was their soul mate just to get laid with lots of others. E.g., Ansiedad, by Juan D'Arienzo[0][1]. Here's Nick Freitas talking about getting married at 19[2]. Be sure to read some of the comments. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHGmN9GTPM [1] https://www.musixmatch.com/es/letras/Juan-D-Arienzo/Ansiedad/traduccion/ingles [2] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u_q8-UNk4TU
  - Arainach 3y ago
    .....and there are plenty of stories of people who got married way too early before they learned who they are and were miserable and got divorced. There are plenty of kids with horror stories of growing up in those loveless households.
    - bequanna 3y ago
      Right. But if you’re mature enough to debate the pros and cons of having children, you hopefully won’t be a bad parent if you do choose have kids.
      - cryptonector 3y ago
        When a couple of 20 year olds decides to have children, they're almost certainly not mature enough, but it can and should work out.
        bart_spoon 3y ago
        Why are they most certainly not mature enough. Having children in the 20s or has been the standard for essentially all of human history until the last 30 years, give or take. What is it about modern society that makes human beings less fit for parenthood than every previous generation?
    - cryptonector 3y ago
      Yes, I'm aware. It's taking a chance. Now if the two kids (for, if they are 19, 20, 21, 22, ... they are kids) have had a good education from their parents and relatives and friends, and hopefully also if those people are around and willing to help them, then they should be able to work through difficulties.
- BeefyMcGhee 3y ago
  Why before 40? Do the kids turn into gremlins if I'm older?
  - bequanna 3y ago
    There are many well-known challenges to conceiving and having a successful pregnancy if the man and especially the woman are near/over than 40.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Really there's often difficulty past 30. Your 20s are the prime years for reproduction, biologically.
- catlover76 3y ago
  > My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. Uhh this sounds like terrible advice--kids aren't cars that can be returned or sold if it turns out the "small part" was incorrect.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - bequanna 3y ago
    If this is your view of having children, I would suggest you wait. They are not a pet or a piece of personal property. Caring for a child is the biggest responsibility of your life and it will likely not go according to plan. If you’re unable to grow to meet the demands, then it may be best to wait.
    - catlover76 3y ago
      Caring for a pet should be for the pet's life as well, and it offends my moral sensibilities to put pets in a category alongside personal property. I think you misunderstand me though--and I'm not sure how, to be frank, I think what I was saying was pretty clear from the context: Precisely because it's such a huge responsibility, etc., the person to whom I was replying was giving bad advice. They were (basically) suggesting having a kid even if one is unsure about whether one wants to. edit: oh you're the poster to whom I was replying. Above, you said: > My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. You will grow to take on the new responsibility. Now you're turning around and saying "oh no, it's a grave responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly, don't do it if you're not ready".
md2020 3y ago
On the other hand, not having kids is also a lot like a religion now. I want kids and have many friends who do not and they’re nice people and there is no issue, but there is a certain subset of the population that spends their entire life telling me how I'm an awful person making a huge mistake for wanting children and they are utterly insufferable and not worth associating with. This is the dominant perspective on the social media that younger generations spend their time on. I’d argue that as a person in their mid 20s today, actually wanting kids is the bizarre position. I often feel alienated for openly stating it among good friends of mine.

temende 3y ago

Given how personally you've taken that off-hand comment, I'm more inclined to believe the OP than your reply.

lucb1e 3y ago
I would rather look at the data than at the tone of the comment. The person they were replying to referred to studies; the person you replied to essentially said they love their children and that childless people find emptyness towards the end. I believe both, and both can be true at the same time, especially considering that I've also heard of studies which showed that people tend to diminish past negative experiences. The parent will view the here and now, with happy children that are doing well, and see that all is good and hard work paid off. The childless person may have fewer people around them in later years, but which has a greater sum of total happiness? Being able to do for fifty years whatever your heart desires, or some happy end where someone sees you go and has a lot of pain from that? (I guess the latter might be partially my bias talking, but I truly am trying to view this objectively, like how one can explain both the study and the subjective experience from the person you replied to.)

zabzonk 3y ago

well, if we are going the anecdata route i am 70 and childless and reasonably happy. i suspect i am not alone.

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I’m 66, and never had kids. Never wanted them. Thinking back now, about what my life would be had I had kids with either of my first two mates, seems like a nightmare. I frankly love my life now.
- malauxyeux 3y ago
  > I frankly love my life now. What's it like?

hotpotamus 3y ago

Seeing children today makes me feel a deep sense of despair. Watching them pushed as hard as possible into schoolwork and extracurriculars from elementary age so that they might have some shot at a decent life; it feels like watching them being fed into a meat grinder (one that I myself went through and would not wish on anyone). And I didn't have to grow up watching the trees die as my local climate changes from a humid sub-tropic coastal plain into a desert; I couldn't imagine being a child looking ahead at decades of climate change - hell, I'm not that old and so it terrifies me as well. I agree that a world without children sounds sad, but with the way things are going, a world with them seems sadder to me.

bad_user 3y ago
My father was born into a world in which he had to practice subsistence farming if he didn't go to school. His was the first generation for which school was an option, and as a child he traveled 20 km by foot to the school and back, daily. My grandfather lost both parents since childhood, as back then hospitals were places where people went to die. He later fought in WW2, and lost his land to communists. During those years, he also witnessed the soviet-induced famine. We are literally living humanity’s best years. Children today basically get sad for not having enough time to play Roblox. How sad is it that they have schoolwork to do instead of subsistence farming? And we get sad over climate change while stuffing our faces with cheap and delicious food while the AC is on.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  I’d say the very definition of depression (and trust me, I’m quite the authority on it) is stuffing your face full of cheap carbs while you never leave your house for fear of heatstroke. Sure gives you time to ponder the meaninglessness of it all though, so if that’s your thing, then the world may indeed be headed in your favorite direction. Just ignore the ever rising levels of depression/anxiety/suicide in teens.
  - bad_user 3y ago
    People dying from the elements is at an all time low! As a teenager, my grandfather lost a set of teeth due to the winter's cold, by sleeping in a cold barn, and he described it as a near-death experience. If anything, for many regions of the world, the weather getting hotter may be a relief for the poor that don't have heating in the winter. We have zero reasons to be more depressed than prior generations. If we are depressed, don't you think the constant fear porn from mass-media has more to do with it? PS: it's not just the carbs that are cheaper and more available. It's everything, including meat. Staples of any healthy vegan diet, like green peas, or lentils, weren't even available until ~1960, after industrial agriculture caught on. Never mind the availability of fresh fruits year-round. My grandparents basically lived on a diet of polenta, potatoes, milk, and eggs, as that's what they were able to grow.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

You sound suspiciously emotional about it.