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> For years, deepfakes – highly convincing fake videos made using AI – have been used to put women’s faces into often aggressive pornographic videos, without th

> For years, deepfakes – highly convincing fake videos made using AI – have been used to put women’s faces into often aggressive pornographic videos, without their consent. The videos often appear so real it can be hard for female victims to deny it isn’t really them. Isn't the better approach to make deepfake technology so ubiquitous that everyone can plausibly deny that it's really them?

CatWChainsaw 3y ago
It's probably the only solution but that doesn't make it a good one.
SenAnder 3y ago
Plus it kills the demand for real child porn. But people would rather get rid of the ick than stop child rape. Take away the emotional fog, and humans understand this, such as the effort to create fake rhino horns to make poaching uneconomical: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/10/fact-check-company-3-d-printed-rhino-horns-help-slow-down-poaching/7523775002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/10/fact... *I don't buy the tortured logic in that article that "such production would create opportunities for laundering real wildlife products as cultured products" - if the fake horn is cheaper to make, that's like laundering blood diamonds as coal, at coal's price point. "Another concern is that the fake horns could drive up the demand for real horns. The status that came with owning a real horn would increase as fake horns become commonly available to everyone" likewise doesn't make sense. How could one tell something is indeed a real horn, and not a fake? And why do fakes make real horns more desirable than they were before? Does Rolex encourage counterfeits, to raise their own prices? It also talks only of "ownership", when horns are used for medicine, not just status. I get the impression they worked backwards from their conclusion to find this logic.
- Tade0 3y ago
  If the experience from what normally happens to new drugs is anything to go by, the dealers eventually start producing their own fake horns, sell them as real, to the point where there's hardly anyone left who knows how a real one looks like. Eventually poaching for real horns becomes too expensive and not really worth the trouble.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  The fake horn project isn't very successful so far, so perhaps that's not the greatest comparison. The easy availability of generated porn does increase the chances of normalising abhorrent behaviour. AI is also restricted to pictures and writing at the moment, you can't generate videos. If the demand of CSAM does actually go down, I'm all for AI generated CSAM. However, we have little indication that it does, other than "it makes sense that it would".
  - Jigsy 3y ago
    > However, we have little indication that it does [...] Probably because it's one of those things that nobody wants to find out. Especially in countries that have "for-profit" prison systems. The UK is probably a great example of this. They - the government - fired their drugs advisor because he returned an answer they didn't want to hear.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  Or you'll get more people hooked on the worst porn, and those with less impulse control will enact their desires. Desire for Rhino horns is nothing like pedophilia, which leads to arguably one of the worst consequences on society.
rented_mule 3y ago
> make deepfake technology so ubiquitous that everyone can plausibly deny that it's really them This seems inevitable given the march of technology. Doesn't this also give plausible deniability to real child porn? This makes child porn laws unenforceable in many cases. Unless fake child porn is also illegal. What trade-off do we want there as a society?
- scarmig 3y ago
  CSAM markets will get flooded by fakes: no one will know what's real and what's not, and the fake abuse will be easier and cheaper to make. So real CSAM will have plausible deniability, but there's no reason outside of exhibitionist motivations to even produce it. Genuinely not sure how that shakes out in terms of net CSAM production (I suspect the exhibitionistic motivations are significant, though even then, if no one is watching your CSAM because they're all watching the fake CSAM, does it still scratch the exhibitionist itch?), but it seems like the inevitable end point, regardless of what laws are passed.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    > and the fake abuse will be easier and cheaper to make Sadly, doubtful. It requires a lot of knowledge and expensive hardware, compared to literally only buying some $20 camera to film. The people who will win the most from such normalization is people who like CSAM, and people who will lose the most are the victims.
advisedwang 3y ago
Even if nobody believes the images are real, it's going to be traumatic for a 13 year old girl to discover her peers are passing around fake nudes of her. This shit needs to be illegal. We have libel laws, even though everyone knows the written word can be lies.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > it's going to be traumatic for a 13 year old girl to discover her peers are passing around fake nudes of her. This shit needs to be illegal. This scenario is very much illegal in the US. The bar to clear is photorealistic; if you Photoshop a kid's face onto a nude body, you have in fact produced child pornography. Possessing or distributing that image are also crimes.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

It's probably the only solution but that doesn't make it a good one.

SenAnder 3y ago

Plus it kills the demand for real child porn. But people would rather get rid of the ick than stop child rape. Take away the emotional fog, and humans understand this, such as the effort to create fake rhino horns to make poaching uneconomical: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/10/fact-check-company-3-d-printed-rhino-horns-help-slow-down-poaching/7523775002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/10/fact... *I don't buy the tortured logic in that article that "such production would create opportunities for laundering real wildlife products as cultured products" - if the fake horn is cheaper to make, that's like laundering blood diamonds as coal, at coal's price point. "Another concern is that the fake horns could drive up the demand for real horns. The status that came with owning a real horn would increase as fake horns become commonly available to everyone" likewise doesn't make sense. How could one tell something is indeed a real horn, and not a fake? And why do fakes make real horns more desirable than they were before? Does Rolex encourage counterfeits, to raise their own prices? It also talks only of "ownership", when horns are used for medicine, not just status. I get the impression they worked backwards from their conclusion to find this logic.

Tade0 3y ago
If the experience from what normally happens to new drugs is anything to go by, the dealers eventually start producing their own fake horns, sell them as real, to the point where there's hardly anyone left who knows how a real one looks like. Eventually poaching for real horns becomes too expensive and not really worth the trouble.
jeroenhd 3y ago
The fake horn project isn't very successful so far, so perhaps that's not the greatest comparison. The easy availability of generated porn does increase the chances of normalising abhorrent behaviour. AI is also restricted to pictures and writing at the moment, you can't generate videos. If the demand of CSAM does actually go down, I'm all for AI generated CSAM. However, we have little indication that it does, other than "it makes sense that it would".
- Jigsy 3y ago
  > However, we have little indication that it does [...] Probably because it's one of those things that nobody wants to find out. Especially in countries that have "for-profit" prison systems. The UK is probably a great example of this. They - the government - fired their drugs advisor because he returned an answer they didn't want to hear.
Kretinsky 3y ago
Or you'll get more people hooked on the worst porn, and those with less impulse control will enact their desires. Desire for Rhino horns is nothing like pedophilia, which leads to arguably one of the worst consequences on society.

rented_mule 3y ago

> make deepfake technology so ubiquitous that everyone can plausibly deny that it's really them This seems inevitable given the march of technology. Doesn't this also give plausible deniability to real child porn? This makes child porn laws unenforceable in many cases. Unless fake child porn is also illegal. What trade-off do we want there as a society?

scarmig 3y ago
CSAM markets will get flooded by fakes: no one will know what's real and what's not, and the fake abuse will be easier and cheaper to make. So real CSAM will have plausible deniability, but there's no reason outside of exhibitionist motivations to even produce it. Genuinely not sure how that shakes out in terms of net CSAM production (I suspect the exhibitionistic motivations are significant, though even then, if no one is watching your CSAM because they're all watching the fake CSAM, does it still scratch the exhibitionist itch?), but it seems like the inevitable end point, regardless of what laws are passed.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  > and the fake abuse will be easier and cheaper to make Sadly, doubtful. It requires a lot of knowledge and expensive hardware, compared to literally only buying some $20 camera to film. The people who will win the most from such normalization is people who like CSAM, and people who will lose the most are the victims.

advisedwang 3y ago

Even if nobody believes the images are real, it's going to be traumatic for a 13 year old girl to discover her peers are passing around fake nudes of her. This shit needs to be illegal. We have libel laws, even though everyone knows the written word can be lies.

jstarfish 3y ago
> it's going to be traumatic for a 13 year old girl to discover her peers are passing around fake nudes of her. This shit needs to be illegal. This scenario is very much illegal in the US. The bar to clear is photorealistic; if you Photoshop a kid's face onto a nude body, you have in fact produced child pornography. Possessing or distributing that image are also crimes.