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There was a lot of borderline propaganda on US news media during the war in the 90s that a lot of people swallowed whole without thinking about it too much: "Se

There was a lot of borderline propaganda on US news media during the war in the 90s that a lot of people swallowed whole without thinking about it too much: "Serbs are bad. Everything they do is bad. Albanians and Croats are just simple innocent victims." (To the point that even the reporter doing most of the coverage at CNN was Albanian and no one thought that was a conflict of interest). The reality is, of course, a lot messier and more unpleasant: The region is filled with people who hate each other and tend to massacre each other along ethnic lines whenever one group gets the upper hand over the others. There's a reason every World War starts there. So NATO stepped in and basically said to Serbia "If there are non-Serbs in _your_ borders, they may form breakaway republics and you must let them secede. However, in Kosovo (your former state) Serbs may not do the same thing." Serbs were basically ethnically cleansed out of Kosovo under the "protection" of NATO Kfor. There are multiple accounts of NATO forces standing a few feet away and watching as Albanians burn and loot Serbian Orthodox churches and villages. I'm not sure what "the way out" of this is, but I think US/NATO has a responsibility to treat all the sides equally, which they don't exactly have a great track record of doing.

surfingdino 3y ago
WWII started with Germany invading Poland. That's a few good kilometres North of Kosovo.
- timeon 3y ago
  > Germany invading Poland Germany and Russia.
  - klausjensen 3y ago
    Outrageous! The army of USSR just took a field-trip to Poland to protect Soviet minorities! They then rounded up about 22,000 Polish military officers, took them to the Katyn Forest outside of Smolensk for a lovely picnic - as a show of good will. How these thousands of Polish officers ended up in mass graves with bullet holes in the back of their heads remains a mystery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cempaka 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - greyw 3y ago
      Can you elaborate what you exactly mean by that? The soviet union and nazi germany both invaded poland and it partitioned with a border agreement (1941). Before and during that they had a bunch of trade agreements (German–Soviet Commercial Agreement in 1939, 1940, 1941). Clearly, they got along just fine before operation barbarossa.
      - helij 3y ago
        Probably this[0] [0]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/322...
alephnerd 3y ago
> I'm not sure what "the way out" of this is An EU assension leading to a shared economic zone and open borders. This is what brought peace to North Ireland, Romania-Hungary, Greece-Bulgaria, etc.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  It didn't stop Brexit however. Europe might get nasty at some point, if we think of all the far-right posturing and their recent successes. These people are dangerous.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    NI doesn't make or break elections in the UK. That's why brexit happened.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      UK still got bitten hard by the realities of Brexit, which were made very clear by EU officials (and everyone with an IQ above room temperature) over the whole process.
leereeves 3y ago
> Serbs were basically ethnically cleansed out of Kosovo under the "protection" of NATO Kfor. There are multiple accounts of NATO forces standing a few feet away and watching as Albanians burn and loot Serbian Orthodox churches and villages. I want to learn more about this, but I can't find a reliable source. For what it's worth, the Wikipedia article about the "2004 unrest in Kosovo" (AKA the "Pogrom against the Serbs") [1] has many accounts of Kfor protecting Serbs. Where can I find accounts of NATO forces doing nothing? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo
- ttyprintk 3y ago
  I think that’s referring to one this week: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/24/one-police-officer-killed-in-kosovo-attack-blamed-on-serbia https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/24/one-police-officer-... And Zociste in 2009
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    But they weren’t looting the monastery this week
    - ttyprintk 3y ago
      The article at present reads “The Serbian Orthodox Church also confirmed that gunmen had stormed the monastery in Banjska“
      - selimthegrim 3y ago
        Serbian gunmen not the Kosovo police at that point.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    Again that doesn't support the claim that the Serbs lack protection. In that case the Kosovo police protected the Serbs and "the NATO-led KFOR mission said its forces were present in the area, “standing ready to respond if required”."
nezirus 3y ago
Yeah, lets treat all "sides" equally, since they are all bad (sarcasm ends) Go to https://www.icty.org/ https://www.icty.org/, read about cases, verdicts and pleas: https://www.icty.org/en/cases/key-figures-cases https://www.icty.org/en/cases/key-figures-cases care to search for the GENOCIDE word in there? Serbia did bad the things in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and was going to do the same in Kosovo until NATO bombarded them. (Kosovo was already critical in 80ies) That doesn't absolve any party of the commited (war) crimes, but it is perfectly clear who was/is the regional bully and who commited aggression against neighbours. I also don't buy tipical lines "they all hate each other", or this is the revenge for what " they" did to "us" in WW2, WW1, during Ottoman times, during Roman times ... Historical crimes are not excuse for new ones, vicious circle must stop somewhere.
- from 3y ago
  You are aware that Milošević and Tuđman both agreed to carve up Bosnia, right? And there was Varivode, "Operation Storm" where the Krajina Serbs who didn't flee quick enough were raped and pillaged, and a whole bunch of other cases. Milošević, the JNA, Srpska, or the Serb "volunteer guard" may have been the worst but there are plenty of contenders for second place. Not to mention the Bosnian mujahideen.
- C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago
  Everything you wrote is correct, and I would just like to add that in all the wars during the 90s, all Serbia had to do in order to avoid war was to not attack other countries and support paramilitary groups inside other countries. They were not defending their territory, they were invading others. Same with this possible invasion that they might be preparing right now, all Serbia needs to do is not attack. Trying to paint this as "all groups hate and massacre each other" is equating the motives of the attacker/invader/bully with the victim, and is just pure propaganda or invention of alternate reality in order to soothe one's guilty conscience. To draw a parallel with something more people might be able to more clearly visualise, Serbia is the armed robber that breaks into your house and starts stealing your stuff and beating you, your wife and your children. By the logic of the "all sides" propaganda here, you are engaging in "mutual hatred" if you try to defend yourself.

surfingdino 3y ago

WWII started with Germany invading Poland. That's a few good kilometres North of Kosovo.

timeon 3y ago
> Germany invading Poland Germany and Russia.
- klausjensen 3y ago
  Outrageous! The army of USSR just took a field-trip to Poland to protect Soviet minorities! They then rounded up about 22,000 Polish military officers, took them to the Katyn Forest outside of Smolensk for a lovely picnic - as a show of good will. How these thousands of Polish officers ended up in mass graves with bullet holes in the back of their heads remains a mystery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cempaka 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - greyw 3y ago
    Can you elaborate what you exactly mean by that? The soviet union and nazi germany both invaded poland and it partitioned with a border agreement (1941). Before and during that they had a bunch of trade agreements (German–Soviet Commercial Agreement in 1939, 1940, 1941). Clearly, they got along just fine before operation barbarossa.
    - helij 3y ago
      Probably this[0] [0]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/322...

alephnerd 3y ago

> I'm not sure what "the way out" of this is An EU assension leading to a shared economic zone and open borders. This is what brought peace to North Ireland, Romania-Hungary, Greece-Bulgaria, etc.

rbanffy 3y ago
It didn't stop Brexit however. Europe might get nasty at some point, if we think of all the far-right posturing and their recent successes. These people are dangerous.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  NI doesn't make or break elections in the UK. That's why brexit happened.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    UK still got bitten hard by the realities of Brexit, which were made very clear by EU officials (and everyone with an IQ above room temperature) over the whole process.

leereeves 3y ago

> Serbs were basically ethnically cleansed out of Kosovo under the "protection" of NATO Kfor. There are multiple accounts of NATO forces standing a few feet away and watching as Albanians burn and loot Serbian Orthodox churches and villages. I want to learn more about this, but I can't find a reliable source. For what it's worth, the Wikipedia article about the "2004 unrest in Kosovo" (AKA the "Pogrom against the Serbs") [1] has many accounts of Kfor protecting Serbs. Where can I find accounts of NATO forces doing nothing? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo

ttyprintk 3y ago
I think that’s referring to one this week: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/24/one-police-officer-killed-in-kosovo-attack-blamed-on-serbia https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/24/one-police-officer-... And Zociste in 2009
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  But they weren’t looting the monastery this week
  - ttyprintk 3y ago
    The article at present reads “The Serbian Orthodox Church also confirmed that gunmen had stormed the monastery in Banjska“
    - selimthegrim 3y ago
      Serbian gunmen not the Kosovo police at that point.
- leereeves 3y ago
  Again that doesn't support the claim that the Serbs lack protection. In that case the Kosovo police protected the Serbs and "the NATO-led KFOR mission said its forces were present in the area, “standing ready to respond if required”."

nezirus 3y ago

Yeah, lets treat all "sides" equally, since they are all bad (sarcasm ends) Go to https://www.icty.org/ https://www.icty.org/, read about cases, verdicts and pleas: https://www.icty.org/en/cases/key-figures-cases https://www.icty.org/en/cases/key-figures-cases care to search for the GENOCIDE word in there? Serbia did bad the things in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and was going to do the same in Kosovo until NATO bombarded them. (Kosovo was already critical in 80ies) That doesn't absolve any party of the commited (war) crimes, but it is perfectly clear who was/is the regional bully and who commited aggression against neighbours. I also don't buy tipical lines "they all hate each other", or this is the revenge for what " they" did to "us" in WW2, WW1, during Ottoman times, during Roman times ... Historical crimes are not excuse for new ones, vicious circle must stop somewhere.

from 3y ago
You are aware that Milošević and Tuđman both agreed to carve up Bosnia, right? And there was Varivode, "Operation Storm" where the Krajina Serbs who didn't flee quick enough were raped and pillaged, and a whole bunch of other cases. Milošević, the JNA, Srpska, or the Serb "volunteer guard" may have been the worst but there are plenty of contenders for second place. Not to mention the Bosnian mujahideen.
C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago
Everything you wrote is correct, and I would just like to add that in all the wars during the 90s, all Serbia had to do in order to avoid war was to not attack other countries and support paramilitary groups inside other countries. They were not defending their territory, they were invading others. Same with this possible invasion that they might be preparing right now, all Serbia needs to do is not attack. Trying to paint this as "all groups hate and massacre each other" is equating the motives of the attacker/invader/bully with the victim, and is just pure propaganda or invention of alternate reality in order to soothe one's guilty conscience. To draw a parallel with something more people might be able to more clearly visualise, Serbia is the armed robber that breaks into your house and starts stealing your stuff and beating you, your wife and your children. By the logic of the "all sides" propaganda here, you are engaging in "mutual hatred" if you try to defend yourself.