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It's a shitshow on both sides. On the one side, the Serbian president is exactly what the rest of the comments here describe him as, and worse. The situation w

It's a shitshow on both sides. On the one side, the Serbian president is exactly what the rest of the comments here describe him as, and worse. The situation would be infinitely better if he recognised Kosovo and moved on. Instead, he keeps the question open purely for his own political advantage, ensuring that the tensions remain at the expense of the people. On the other side, Kosovo is a military industrial complex puppet state that they've cut ties with/lost control of (intentionally or otherwise). It has been ramping up its opportunistic bullying and provocative abuse of the minority population in the north, who as of last year have no representation at all in local government, and are pretty helpless. The unfortunate victims at this point in time are the minority Serbs in northern Kosovo, and more widely, the general Serbian population, who just like in the case of Brexit are being held hostage by their predominantly older, state-owned TV-watching, voting population who overwhelmingly vote for Vucic. Meanwhile, weapons have been flooding into the region from both the east and the west at alarming rates for the last couple of years, so he must be useful to someone. Nobody wants this, but war is money, so here we are.

matusp 3y ago
It's as if creating a new state from a thin air without any consideration for the ethnical minorities that will stay there was a bad idea. The problem here is that US politics in the region was never meant to create peace, it was meant to get influence and push Russia out. The solutions for both Kosovo and Bosnia were pretty obviously leading to failed state territory from the get go and the whole region will be devastated by these decisions in the decades to come.
- brnt 3y ago
  Especially Bosnia, there was very much no correlation between territory and ethnicity, so the difficulty is built in. I don't know if this was much better in Kosovo, it does seem like that sliver of mostly Serbians are on the wrong side of the border, but since this is, you know, the Balkans, I expect the answer to be more complicated than a simple "America did what was in it's best interest". Pushing Russia out is always a good thing, if stability and human rights are of interest though. It's tons better in either country now than it was before.
- JustLurking2022 3y ago
  Technically there's also a path where people become less racist so ethnicities matter less. I think that's an area where the average person in the U.S. struggles. For all our issues with race, we are generally fairly integrated, so the thought that national borders need to very closely reflect ethnicities isn't top of mind.
  - Gare 3y ago
    Well, you should ask native Americans how they feel about that
  - necovek 3y ago
    There is not much of racism in Serbia and Balkans (other than to Romas — but even that's never about their abilities but rather about their incompatible culture — they are "dirty and lazy" for the most part): nationalism is, like everywhere else in the world (including the USA), easy to spark in rural areas, and it's only the question of how much urban, educated population there is that will have the energy to supress the desires of the minority. Serbia proper has not seen much war other than the NATO bombing, and if you look at population statistics from 1991 and 2001 census in Balkan countries, you'll notice that it was mostly Serbian population that ended up displaced: instead of looking at the news narratives, we've got an opportunity to look at outcomes this far removed from the events. USA has systemic, widespread racism, which is harder to get a concentrated effort against since the 0.1% minority inflicting harm with it are spread around a huge area and 300M+ people. In tiny countries like Serbia (7M), Croatia (4M), Bosnia (3M), Kosovo (1.5-2M), an unscrupolous populist like Vučić or Kurti can easily get the entire minority acting together, and 0.1% ready to do damage can do a lot of damage against the other peaceful 99.9% who are slow to react. And once shit hits the fan, it's "us" vs "them", so hard for voice of reason to prevail on either side.
lalaland1125 3y ago
> who as of last year have no representation at all in local government It's very misleading to mention this without stating the reason: they boycotted the elections If you don't vote, you don't get any representation
- helij 3y ago
  It's very misleading from your side. People don't just boycott elections for the heck of it. "Serbia and the Kosovo Serbs are demanding the creation of an association of Kosovo Serb municipalities, in line with a decade-old EU-brokered deal with the Kosovo government in Pristina, before they take part in the vote."[0] [0]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/serbs-north-kosovo-boycott-local-elections-2023-04-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/serbs-north-kosovo-boyc... Kurti said that they will never implement the agreement they signed and here we are. If only 'countries' honored what they signed.
- boomskats 3y ago
  I don't think it's misleading. It is an accurate description of the current situation. They also no longer have any representation in their local police force[0]. Along similar lines, it would be misleading to say the reason for the current situation is simply that "they boycotted the elections", without unpacking the reasons behind that boycott. For example, US actually penalised Kosovo[1] for their conduct following that election, and the EU went as far as to accuse their authorities of intentionally destabilising the situation. It's important to be mindful of succumbing to reductionism if you're looking to understand complex political situations (assuming that's what you're looking to do). [0]: https://www.euronews.com/2022/11/05/serb-mps-and-police-resign-en-masse-in-kosovo-amid-licence-plate-spat https://www.euronews.com/2022/11/05/serb-mps-and-police-resi... [1]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65759214 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65759214
denton-scratch 3y ago
> who as of last year have no representation at all in local government Well, if you refuse to stand-up candidates in local elections, that's what happens.
anonymousDan 3y ago
You're trying to muddy the waters here by saying each side is as bad as the other, but it's really not the case. Vucic is a tinpot wannabe dictator who is trying to rustle up a provocation to prop up his support at home.
- necovek 3y ago
  The fact that you are right about Vučić does not mean it's not exactly the same for Kurti: EU and USA were warning that side of escalating tensions mere months ago and threatening repercussions too. Each side is as bad as the other. As a Serbian, I find it worse that Serbian side is no better, but populism wins everywhere (US had four years of Trump, there's Brexit...).

matusp 3y ago

It's as if creating a new state from a thin air without any consideration for the ethnical minorities that will stay there was a bad idea. The problem here is that US politics in the region was never meant to create peace, it was meant to get influence and push Russia out. The solutions for both Kosovo and Bosnia were pretty obviously leading to failed state territory from the get go and the whole region will be devastated by these decisions in the decades to come.

brnt 3y ago
Especially Bosnia, there was very much no correlation between territory and ethnicity, so the difficulty is built in. I don't know if this was much better in Kosovo, it does seem like that sliver of mostly Serbians are on the wrong side of the border, but since this is, you know, the Balkans, I expect the answer to be more complicated than a simple "America did what was in it's best interest". Pushing Russia out is always a good thing, if stability and human rights are of interest though. It's tons better in either country now than it was before.
JustLurking2022 3y ago
Technically there's also a path where people become less racist so ethnicities matter less. I think that's an area where the average person in the U.S. struggles. For all our issues with race, we are generally fairly integrated, so the thought that national borders need to very closely reflect ethnicities isn't top of mind.
- Gare 3y ago
  Well, you should ask native Americans how they feel about that
- necovek 3y ago
  There is not much of racism in Serbia and Balkans (other than to Romas — but even that's never about their abilities but rather about their incompatible culture — they are "dirty and lazy" for the most part): nationalism is, like everywhere else in the world (including the USA), easy to spark in rural areas, and it's only the question of how much urban, educated population there is that will have the energy to supress the desires of the minority. Serbia proper has not seen much war other than the NATO bombing, and if you look at population statistics from 1991 and 2001 census in Balkan countries, you'll notice that it was mostly Serbian population that ended up displaced: instead of looking at the news narratives, we've got an opportunity to look at outcomes this far removed from the events. USA has systemic, widespread racism, which is harder to get a concentrated effort against since the 0.1% minority inflicting harm with it are spread around a huge area and 300M+ people. In tiny countries like Serbia (7M), Croatia (4M), Bosnia (3M), Kosovo (1.5-2M), an unscrupolous populist like Vučić or Kurti can easily get the entire minority acting together, and 0.1% ready to do damage can do a lot of damage against the other peaceful 99.9% who are slow to react. And once shit hits the fan, it's "us" vs "them", so hard for voice of reason to prevail on either side.

lalaland1125 3y ago

> who as of last year have no representation at all in local government It's very misleading to mention this without stating the reason: they boycotted the elections If you don't vote, you don't get any representation

helij 3y ago
It's very misleading from your side. People don't just boycott elections for the heck of it. "Serbia and the Kosovo Serbs are demanding the creation of an association of Kosovo Serb municipalities, in line with a decade-old EU-brokered deal with the Kosovo government in Pristina, before they take part in the vote."[0] [0]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/serbs-north-kosovo-boycott-local-elections-2023-04-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/serbs-north-kosovo-boyc... Kurti said that they will never implement the agreement they signed and here we are. If only 'countries' honored what they signed.
boomskats 3y ago
I don't think it's misleading. It is an accurate description of the current situation. They also no longer have any representation in their local police force[0]. Along similar lines, it would be misleading to say the reason for the current situation is simply that "they boycotted the elections", without unpacking the reasons behind that boycott. For example, US actually penalised Kosovo[1] for their conduct following that election, and the EU went as far as to accuse their authorities of intentionally destabilising the situation. It's important to be mindful of succumbing to reductionism if you're looking to understand complex political situations (assuming that's what you're looking to do). [0]: https://www.euronews.com/2022/11/05/serb-mps-and-police-resign-en-masse-in-kosovo-amid-licence-plate-spat https://www.euronews.com/2022/11/05/serb-mps-and-police-resi... [1]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65759214 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65759214

denton-scratch 3y ago

> who as of last year have no representation at all in local government Well, if you refuse to stand-up candidates in local elections, that's what happens.

anonymousDan 3y ago

You're trying to muddy the waters here by saying each side is as bad as the other, but it's really not the case. Vucic is a tinpot wannabe dictator who is trying to rustle up a provocation to prop up his support at home.

necovek 3y ago
The fact that you are right about Vučić does not mean it's not exactly the same for Kurti: EU and USA were warning that side of escalating tensions mere months ago and threatening repercussions too. Each side is as bad as the other. As a Serbian, I find it worse that Serbian side is no better, but populism wins everywhere (US had four years of Trump, there's Brexit...).