3 ms·

Wouldn't it be more effective to pursue criminal charges against the individuals directly responsible? Graffitis, particularly when they involve symbols as dist

Wouldn't it be more effective to pursue criminal charges against the individuals directly responsible? Graffitis, particularly when they involve symbols as disturbing as a noose, are not just offensive, they're criminal acts. They could even be classified as hate crimes or death threats. The perpetrators should be held responsible. Otherwise, they'll simply continue this harmful behavior in their future workplaces, knowing that there are no real consequences.

rtpg 3y ago
I think that this is two things: - these people doing this stuff - Tesla, once receiving complaints about it, not doing anything about this The important bit: > Tesla has failed to investigate complaints of racist conduct and has fired or otherwise retaliated against workers who reported harassment, the EEOC said in the lawsuit. I don't really know how labor law works on this front but if Tesla knew this was happening and did nothing about it I guess they are considered partly liable for... something?
- pests 3y ago
  > but if Tesla knew this was happening and did nothing about it I guess they are considered partly liable for... something? Tesla has to provide a safe work environment. Just like they have to provide employees with equipment and training to not physically hurt themselves doing their job they need to provide resolution and training to prevent employees from hurting each other. > According to OSHA, bullying and intimidation constitute a form of workplace violence because workers do not deserve to be treated poorly or abused while trying to make a living.
- oblio 3y ago
  It's worse than doing nothing. If you're retaliating you're helping the aggressor.
fxd123 3y ago
> Wouldn't it be more effective to pursue criminal charges against the individuals directly responsible? No, since criminal conviction has a higher threshold
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Yes, it requires evidence.
  - bangkoksbest 3y ago
    The standard for civil cases is literally "a preponderance of the evidence"...
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      If both civil and criminal cases determine truth why does one end up with different results?
    - fxd123 3y ago
      And the preponderance standard for civil cases is "over 50% likelihood". That's not very strong.
      - bangkoksbest 3y ago
        Yeah, it's a civil case, not criminal. Only criminal trials should have standards as high as criminal trials do because only criminal trials punish you by taking away your personal autonomy and freedom. Civil trials cost you money, so obviously the standard is lower.
        fxd123 3y ago
        > Civil trials cost you money, so obviously the standard is lower ... ... ...
MattGaiser 3y ago
Wouldn’t both be in trouble given that Tesla must provide a safe work environment?
Immerse7795 3y ago
Not a lawyer but in US, First Amendment provides freedom to practice hate speech. The best way to combat hate speech, however vile they are is to let them be said in public and to shame them in public with an order of magnitude of a better alternative speech. Providing government right to pursue criminal charges for speech is a slippery slope.
dri_ft 3y ago
>Graffitis Graffiti is already plural, or at least uncountable.

rtpg 3y ago

I think that this is two things: - these people doing this stuff - Tesla, once receiving complaints about it, not doing anything about this The important bit: > Tesla has failed to investigate complaints of racist conduct and has fired or otherwise retaliated against workers who reported harassment, the EEOC said in the lawsuit. I don't really know how labor law works on this front but if Tesla knew this was happening and did nothing about it I guess they are considered partly liable for... something?

pests 3y ago
> but if Tesla knew this was happening and did nothing about it I guess they are considered partly liable for... something? Tesla has to provide a safe work environment. Just like they have to provide employees with equipment and training to not physically hurt themselves doing their job they need to provide resolution and training to prevent employees from hurting each other. > According to OSHA, bullying and intimidation constitute a form of workplace violence because workers do not deserve to be treated poorly or abused while trying to make a living.
oblio 3y ago
It's worse than doing nothing. If you're retaliating you're helping the aggressor.

fxd123 3y ago

> Wouldn't it be more effective to pursue criminal charges against the individuals directly responsible? No, since criminal conviction has a higher threshold

willcipriano 3y ago
Yes, it requires evidence.
- bangkoksbest 3y ago
  The standard for civil cases is literally "a preponderance of the evidence"...
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    If both civil and criminal cases determine truth why does one end up with different results?
  - fxd123 3y ago
    And the preponderance standard for civil cases is "over 50% likelihood". That's not very strong.
    - bangkoksbest 3y ago
      Yeah, it's a civil case, not criminal. Only criminal trials should have standards as high as criminal trials do because only criminal trials punish you by taking away your personal autonomy and freedom. Civil trials cost you money, so obviously the standard is lower.
      - fxd123 3y ago
        > Civil trials cost you money, so obviously the standard is lower ... ... ...

MattGaiser 3y ago

Wouldn’t both be in trouble given that Tesla must provide a safe work environment?

Immerse7795 3y ago

Not a lawyer but in US, First Amendment provides freedom to practice hate speech. The best way to combat hate speech, however vile they are is to let them be said in public and to shame them in public with an order of magnitude of a better alternative speech. Providing government right to pursue criminal charges for speech is a slippery slope.

dri_ft 3y ago

>Graffitis Graffiti is already plural, or at least uncountable.