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> There are already lots of graph UIs that can auto layout. Do you have any references besides Graphviz? I haven't seen much that does anything interesting in

by bmitc 3y ago

> There are already lots of graph UIs that can auto layout. Do you have any references besides Graphviz? I haven't seen much that does anything interesting in terms of weighted or constraint-based layouts.

CyberDildonics 3y ago
It's in a lot of content creation tools already. https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algorithm/ https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algor... https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout?
- bmitc 3y ago
  Those all look like the same, standard layout algorithms that don't seem to take into account any particular relationship between a group of nodes. Almost every graph layout algorithm I've seen just treats the nodes as individual things to be connected rather than additionally adding some contextual grouping context to various subsets of the nodes, which I think is what is really required for interactive graphs. > What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout? I didn't and don't have a comment on that.
  - catapart 3y ago
    Not to tell you how to comment, but those that don't seek answers with an open mind will often fulfill their own disillusion without your help at all. Which is to say: if the person you're responding to can't intrinsically understand what would be good about having a 'pair programmer AI' cleaning up your graph as you code it, based on things it learned about how you code, then that person is probably not going to benefit from whatever you can explain to them. If they don't have the problem, then their understanding of it will be just as academic as their naysaying of it. And, all things being equal, why bother trying to make someone understand something they've already represented a lack of utility for?
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      Not to tell you how to comment, but those who don't seek answers will not realize their dreams. Their understanding will be an academic projection of the future and they will guard themselves from truth. If people don't intrinsically understand you, maybe you need to go in to more detail so your explanation isn't so abstract. Ergo, vis-a-vi have you ever actually tried making a graph that is rearranging itself while you're using it? Also what is the "AI" doing that can't be done with a normal algorithm? Positioning nodes in a graph would just be determining their x and y positions. How much time have you spent working with node graphs? Arranging the nodes is easier than arranging your keyboard and mouse, it's trivial.
      - catapart 3y ago
        > If people don't intrinsically understand you, maybe you need to go in to more detail so your explanation isn't so abstract. People did; you didn't. > Ergo, vis-a-vi have you ever actually tried making a graph that is rearranging itself while you're using it? No one said anything about "while you're using it". Linters don't fuck up your text as you type it. It's a utility like anything else. And, YES, I have built a working version of one. It doesn't use machine learning/tensors at all, and it's a fucking nightmare to develop. I can see exactly where those things would help me. It's too abstract, to you, to understand? That's a shame! But other people seem to get it, so if you are having trouble, maybe try approaching your ignorance with openness and curiosity instead of cynicism and trivialization ('uncross some lines'). If you want to know how much time I've spent working on node edge graphs, you wouldn't believe me. But I can at least point you to the start of the web-component version I'm porting: https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph It's probably two years out of date at this point, as I've been integrating some of the algorithms for the specific need I have for these graphs (interactive dialog), but even from that anemic demo you can see that I know how to build the damn things. Again, you're trivializing for...some reason? I don't know. You seem to think you know more about me on this, and that's fine, but you don't really ever demonstrate that so I can't see your commentary as anything other than intransigent ignorance. Which was obvious from your first response, which is why this is my first (and last) direct response to you. I hope you feel better about whatever it is that is causing you to have this reaction to a pretty obvious benefit that you, for whatever reason, seem too stubborn to engage with.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    > What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout? I didn't and don't have a comment on that. That's what I replied to and the question I asked. If you want to group nodes by some context, why not just do it? This doesn't seem complicated to me. I don't know why there would need to be 'tensor based learning' 'machine learning' or even some one else's algorithm. which I think is what is really required for interactive graphs. Why would this be required for 'interactive graphs' and what does that mean? If you don't know of any graph that does this and you think it's required, do you have some definition of 'interactive graphs' that has never been done?

by bmitc 3y ago

CyberDildonics 3y ago

It's in a lot of content creation tools already. https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algorithm/ https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algor... https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout?

bmitc 3y ago
Those all look like the same, standard layout algorithms that don't seem to take into account any particular relationship between a group of nodes. Almost every graph layout algorithm I've seen just treats the nodes as individual things to be connected rather than additionally adding some contextual grouping context to various subsets of the nodes, which I think is what is really required for interactive graphs. > What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout? I didn't and don't have a comment on that.
- catapart 3y ago
  Not to tell you how to comment, but those that don't seek answers with an open mind will often fulfill their own disillusion without your help at all. Which is to say: if the person you're responding to can't intrinsically understand what would be good about having a 'pair programmer AI' cleaning up your graph as you code it, based on things it learned about how you code, then that person is probably not going to benefit from whatever you can explain to them. If they don't have the problem, then their understanding of it will be just as academic as their naysaying of it. And, all things being equal, why bother trying to make someone understand something they've already represented a lack of utility for?
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    Not to tell you how to comment, but those who don't seek answers will not realize their dreams. Their understanding will be an academic projection of the future and they will guard themselves from truth. If people don't intrinsically understand you, maybe you need to go in to more detail so your explanation isn't so abstract. Ergo, vis-a-vi have you ever actually tried making a graph that is rearranging itself while you're using it? Also what is the "AI" doing that can't be done with a normal algorithm? Positioning nodes in a graph would just be determining their x and y positions. How much time have you spent working with node graphs? Arranging the nodes is easier than arranging your keyboard and mouse, it's trivial.
    - catapart 3y ago
      > If people don't intrinsically understand you, maybe you need to go in to more detail so your explanation isn't so abstract. People did; you didn't. > Ergo, vis-a-vi have you ever actually tried making a graph that is rearranging itself while you're using it? No one said anything about "while you're using it". Linters don't fuck up your text as you type it. It's a utility like anything else. And, YES, I have built a working version of one. It doesn't use machine learning/tensors at all, and it's a fucking nightmare to develop. I can see exactly where those things would help me. It's too abstract, to you, to understand? That's a shame! But other people seem to get it, so if you are having trouble, maybe try approaching your ignorance with openness and curiosity instead of cynicism and trivialization ('uncross some lines'). If you want to know how much time I've spent working on node edge graphs, you wouldn't believe me. But I can at least point you to the start of the web-component version I'm porting: https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph It's probably two years out of date at this point, as I've been integrating some of the algorithms for the specific need I have for these graphs (interactive dialog), but even from that anemic demo you can see that I know how to build the damn things. Again, you're trivializing for...some reason? I don't know. You seem to think you know more about me on this, and that's fine, but you don't really ever demonstrate that so I can't see your commentary as anything other than intransigent ignorance. Which was obvious from your first response, which is why this is my first (and last) direct response to you. I hope you feel better about whatever it is that is causing you to have this reaction to a pretty obvious benefit that you, for whatever reason, seem too stubborn to engage with.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  > What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout? I didn't and don't have a comment on that. That's what I replied to and the question I asked. If you want to group nodes by some context, why not just do it? This doesn't seem complicated to me. I don't know why there would need to be 'tensor based learning' 'machine learning' or even some one else's algorithm. which I think is what is really required for interactive graphs. Why would this be required for 'interactive graphs' and what does that mean? If you don't know of any graph that does this and you think it's required, do you have some definition of 'interactive graphs' that has never been done?