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Naomi Klein's 2009 film "The Shock Doctrine" (imdb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1355640/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1355640/), available on netflix, looks at s

by Torn 15y ago

Naomi Klein's 2009 film "The Shock Doctrine" (imdb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1355640/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1355640/), available on netflix, looks at similar subject matter. In short, the 'chicago school' economics lead by Milton Friedman posit that as-free-as-possible markets, de-regulation and privatisation are economically beneficial. In practice (see: Argentina, Chile, etc) they only seem to further the gap between rich and poor, and the 'shock doctrine' way of destabilising the existing economy and government to achieve this is pretty disgusting.

Symmetry 15y ago
Wait, how on Earth could you call Argentina an as-free-as-possible market? And I'd far rather live in Chile even in the bottom quintile than any other country in South America.
maratd 15y ago
> In short, the 'chicago school' economics lead by Milton Friedman posit that as-free-as-possible markets, de-regulation and privatisation are economically beneficial. They are. You want a comparison? Let's compare Chile to North Korea, and the wealth gap in those nations. Free-as-possible markets aren't perfect. They may not even be good. But they're better than the alternative.
- EvilTerran 15y ago
  "Free-as-possible markets ... are better than the alternative[, North Korea]." That's a nice false dichotomy you've got there.
  - maratd 15y ago
    Wow. In the future, if you're going to put quotes around something someone said, make sure they actually said it. Re-arranging words that I used into new sentences doesn't count.
    - EvilTerran 15y ago
      I made no attempt to hide my editing. I stand by it, too -- I only stated explicitly what you were implying. You followed the dichotomy "Let's compare Chile to North Korea" with the dichotomy "Free-as-possible markets [or] the alternative", in a context where the parent comment had already associated Chile with "free-as-possible markets". Are you now going to insist that you were not intending to associate North Korea with "the alternative"? Because I find that pretty unlikely.
      - maratd 15y ago
        I should have used a plural instead of the singular. There are, of course, many alternatives to the free market. Communism, socialism, feudalism, anarchism, capitalism, cronyism, and quite a few other isms. And free markets are better than all of those alternatives. You don't think so? Examples, please, instead of non-existent dichotomies.
        EvilTerran 15y ago
        Indeed, the mention of North Korea as an alternative only got under my skin owing to its proximity to the implication that there was only one alternative - I probably wouldn't have bothered grumbling if only that "the" had been an "any". A market that was "as free as possible" would have no government regulation at all - there's one of those in Somalia. How's that for an example?
        maratd 15y ago
        > there's one of those in Somalia. How's that for an example? First, I asked for an example of an alternative that works better. You gave me an example of what you think a free market system looks like. Second, that's not even an example of a free market system. That's anarchy. Anarchism. An ism. A free-market system still has a functional judiciary, a respect for property rights, etc etc. Somalia has none of those.
        15y ago
bhb916 15y ago
First, "The Shock Doctrine" was a book before it was a political documentary. Recommending the movie but not the book seems a little silly to me. Second, I can't recommend it as a serious work. I've read a lot of Klein's work (two of her books sit here on my bookshelf) and I walked away each time rather unimpressed. In this particular case, she takes something that can be universally condemned (deliberately creating or taking advantage of disaster to pursue corporate interests) and uses it as a weapon against those who advocate free markets. This is a blatant misrepresentation of that ideology, the chicago school, and Milton Friedman. In short, Klein builds a great case against corporatism, rent-seeking, and government sponsored elitism and then beats those lobbying for freedom and equality over the head with it.

by Torn 15y ago

Symmetry 15y ago

Wait, how on Earth could you call Argentina an as-free-as-possible market? And I'd far rather live in Chile even in the bottom quintile than any other country in South America.

maratd 15y ago

> In short, the 'chicago school' economics lead by Milton Friedman posit that as-free-as-possible markets, de-regulation and privatisation are economically beneficial. They are. You want a comparison? Let's compare Chile to North Korea, and the wealth gap in those nations. Free-as-possible markets aren't perfect. They may not even be good. But they're better than the alternative.

EvilTerran 15y ago
"Free-as-possible markets ... are better than the alternative[, North Korea]." That's a nice false dichotomy you've got there.
- maratd 15y ago
  Wow. In the future, if you're going to put quotes around something someone said, make sure they actually said it. Re-arranging words that I used into new sentences doesn't count.
  - EvilTerran 15y ago
    I made no attempt to hide my editing. I stand by it, too -- I only stated explicitly what you were implying. You followed the dichotomy "Let's compare Chile to North Korea" with the dichotomy "Free-as-possible markets [or] the alternative", in a context where the parent comment had already associated Chile with "free-as-possible markets". Are you now going to insist that you were not intending to associate North Korea with "the alternative"? Because I find that pretty unlikely.
    - maratd 15y ago
      I should have used a plural instead of the singular. There are, of course, many alternatives to the free market. Communism, socialism, feudalism, anarchism, capitalism, cronyism, and quite a few other isms. And free markets are better than all of those alternatives. You don't think so? Examples, please, instead of non-existent dichotomies.
      - EvilTerran 15y ago
        Indeed, the mention of North Korea as an alternative only got under my skin owing to its proximity to the implication that there was only one alternative - I probably wouldn't have bothered grumbling if only that "the" had been an "any". A market that was "as free as possible" would have no government regulation at all - there's one of those in Somalia. How's that for an example?
        maratd 15y ago
        > there's one of those in Somalia. How's that for an example? First, I asked for an example of an alternative that works better. You gave me an example of what you think a free market system looks like. Second, that's not even an example of a free market system. That's anarchy. Anarchism. An ism. A free-market system still has a functional judiciary, a respect for property rights, etc etc. Somalia has none of those.
        15y ago

bhb916 15y ago

First, "The Shock Doctrine" was a book before it was a political documentary. Recommending the movie but not the book seems a little silly to me. Second, I can't recommend it as a serious work. I've read a lot of Klein's work (two of her books sit here on my bookshelf) and I walked away each time rather unimpressed. In this particular case, she takes something that can be universally condemned (deliberately creating or taking advantage of disaster to pursue corporate interests) and uses it as a weapon against those who advocate free markets. This is a blatant misrepresentation of that ideology, the chicago school, and Milton Friedman. In short, Klein builds a great case against corporatism, rent-seeking, and government sponsored elitism and then beats those lobbying for freedom and equality over the head with it.