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Gas taxes pay for less than half of what's required for road maintenance[0]. Again, we don't expect roads to make a profit, but somehow mass transit has to pla

by fader 3y ago

Gas taxes pay for less than half of what's required for road maintenance[0]. Again, we don't expect roads to make a profit, but somehow mass transit has to play by other rules. Cars are far, far more subsidized than public transit[1]. (Even these analyses tend to ignore externalities like "free" parking. In what other realm would you ever expect to permanently store your private property on public land without paying and have it protected by the police?) Driving is so incredibly heavily subsidized in the US that people genuinely _believe_ things like paying a miniscule tax at the pump covers the actual cost of driving. [0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/debunking-the-myth-that-because-of-the-gas-tax-only-drivers-pay-for-roads https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/debunking... [1]: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/8/17/in-transportation-costs-its-the-system-stupid https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/8/17/in-transportat...

landemva 3y ago
The Blomberg link you provided was a useful read because it highlights how tax thinking is partisan. For example, "You might think both would pay the same sales tax ... while the driver would pay an additional gas tax, with that money going toward roads. In 37 states you'd be wrong—that's how many places have a fuel exemption for sales tax." No, I would not think fuel should have two sales taxes. The article concludes by advocating for fuel taxes to be added to the general fund instead of being siloed for roads. That sounds like a great way to take what is a specific use tax and spend it on everything, instead of the thing being used. If you propose raising the fuel tax, well maybe that is needed. Also, please help me understand where I have access to free parking on public land. Cettainly not at the airport or downtown streets in large cities.
- fader 3y ago
  > Also, please help me understand where I have access to free parking on public land. Cettainly not at the airport or downtown streets in large cities. ... Are you seriously trying to claim that you've never seen free street parking anywhere? The vast majority of parking everywhere in the country is unmetered. That's tax money paying for car storage. Cherry picking an airport is absolutely disingenuous and a bad faith argument.
  - landemva 3y ago
    > disingenuous and a bad faith argument. Whoaaa assumptions! Picking the airport and downtown are the only places on government property I occasionally park, and I pay per use for those. I rarely park on small roads because I have nothing to do there. Roads can be private - owned by the person with the adjoining house. I live in a town in which the "roads" are private property with reciprocal easements to all other property owners in the town. It's awesome. There are no problems from people storing their RVs and trailers and junk on the street, because it gets towed for trespass. The town top budget item for our taxes is to hire companies to maintain what appear to be roads. This keeps the town answering to the people, because if they don't maintain the "roads" the people will reduce the taxes to about zero. I'm serious, on what government property do I park for free?
    - StockHuman 3y ago
      You are not everyone in the country; indeed, you are a minority in that respect. Refuting a general argument through anecdote is not fair to what you’re discussing.
    - JambalayaJim 3y ago
      The vast majority of roads in cities are public property, not private. You’re making a disingenuous argument using your small town as an example.
      - landemva 3y ago
        Maybe govt owning transport infrastructure is not working or is not affordable. We grow up with what is around us, and that is what we know. The Walmart parking lot is private and not paid by my taxes. There are solutions other than govt ownership, and some lead to more private property with allowances for public use. If a coffee shop wants parking, maybe they should have their own parking spots rather than relying on govt to pave and maintain the parking spots on the street in front of the coffee shop.
gottorf 3y ago
Your Bloomberg source reports that as of 2011, users of highways paid for 40-50% of the money spent on highways. The T's fare recovery ratio (the ratio of operating revenue to operating expenses) was in the low 40% range in the years up to 2019, the last normal year for transit systems. So it would appear that the amount of "subsidization" is comparable between road and transit. I certainly don't expect mass transit to make a profit, either, to be clear. I understand the concept of a public good that generates positive externalities. But I don't want anything, whether it be cars or transit, to be a categorical imperative that must be enabled at any cost, since we live in a world constrained by limited resources. Your second source puts up some figures from another source that says driving is effectively subsidized 10x, but unfortunately that source's website no longer functions, so I cannot evaluate what their methodology is. Regardless, it's obvious that automobiles are less efficient at moving people than mass transit. Perhaps a little less obvious is that efficiency isn't the end-all be-all goal of public policy. The more interesting point it raises is the question: > "What kind of place do you really want to live in?" with all factors considered. With all factors considered, the greatest internal migration of the past few decades has been the post-Covid outflow of people from the few cities with transit systems that exist in the US to much more sprawling, car-dependent, suburban places.

by fader 3y ago

landemva 3y ago

The Blomberg link you provided was a useful read because it highlights how tax thinking is partisan. For example, "You might think both would pay the same sales tax ... while the driver would pay an additional gas tax, with that money going toward roads. In 37 states you'd be wrong—that's how many places have a fuel exemption for sales tax." No, I would not think fuel should have two sales taxes. The article concludes by advocating for fuel taxes to be added to the general fund instead of being siloed for roads. That sounds like a great way to take what is a specific use tax and spend it on everything, instead of the thing being used. If you propose raising the fuel tax, well maybe that is needed. Also, please help me understand where I have access to free parking on public land. Cettainly not at the airport or downtown streets in large cities.

fader 3y ago
> Also, please help me understand where I have access to free parking on public land. Cettainly not at the airport or downtown streets in large cities. ... Are you seriously trying to claim that you've never seen free street parking anywhere? The vast majority of parking everywhere in the country is unmetered. That's tax money paying for car storage. Cherry picking an airport is absolutely disingenuous and a bad faith argument.
- landemva 3y ago
  > disingenuous and a bad faith argument. Whoaaa assumptions! Picking the airport and downtown are the only places on government property I occasionally park, and I pay per use for those. I rarely park on small roads because I have nothing to do there. Roads can be private - owned by the person with the adjoining house. I live in a town in which the "roads" are private property with reciprocal easements to all other property owners in the town. It's awesome. There are no problems from people storing their RVs and trailers and junk on the street, because it gets towed for trespass. The town top budget item for our taxes is to hire companies to maintain what appear to be roads. This keeps the town answering to the people, because if they don't maintain the "roads" the people will reduce the taxes to about zero. I'm serious, on what government property do I park for free?
  - StockHuman 3y ago
    You are not everyone in the country; indeed, you are a minority in that respect. Refuting a general argument through anecdote is not fair to what you’re discussing.
  - JambalayaJim 3y ago
    The vast majority of roads in cities are public property, not private. You’re making a disingenuous argument using your small town as an example.
    - landemva 3y ago
      Maybe govt owning transport infrastructure is not working or is not affordable. We grow up with what is around us, and that is what we know. The Walmart parking lot is private and not paid by my taxes. There are solutions other than govt ownership, and some lead to more private property with allowances for public use. If a coffee shop wants parking, maybe they should have their own parking spots rather than relying on govt to pave and maintain the parking spots on the street in front of the coffee shop.

gottorf 3y ago

Your Bloomberg source reports that as of 2011, users of highways paid for 40-50% of the money spent on highways. The T's fare recovery ratio (the ratio of operating revenue to operating expenses) was in the low 40% range in the years up to 2019, the last normal year for transit systems. So it would appear that the amount of "subsidization" is comparable between road and transit. I certainly don't expect mass transit to make a profit, either, to be clear. I understand the concept of a public good that generates positive externalities. But I don't want anything, whether it be cars or transit, to be a categorical imperative that must be enabled at any cost, since we live in a world constrained by limited resources. Your second source puts up some figures from another source that says driving is effectively subsidized 10x, but unfortunately that source's website no longer functions, so I cannot evaluate what their methodology is. Regardless, it's obvious that automobiles are less efficient at moving people than mass transit. Perhaps a little less obvious is that efficiency isn't the end-all be-all goal of public policy. The more interesting point it raises is the question: > "What kind of place do you really want to live in?" with all factors considered. With all factors considered, the greatest internal migration of the past few decades has been the post-Covid outflow of people from the few cities with transit systems that exist in the US to much more sprawling, car-dependent, suburban places.