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I'm really torn about this. Mauna Kea is the best place on the entire planet to observe the galactic center; it has the best seeing (minimal humidity and low at

I'm really torn about this. Mauna Kea is the best place on the entire planet to observe the galactic center; it has the best seeing (minimal humidity and low atmospheric turbulence) that's not matched in the northern hemisphere. The ESO already has an equivalent observatory planned in the southern hemisphere so there's less value in relocating the TMT down to Chile, so effectively either Mauna Kea or nowhere. Simultaneously, Hawaii has an ugly history of colonization that's not talked about enough. The area is sacred to native Hawaiians and indigenous people deserve say in how their ancestral land is used. The TMT is also a comparatively easy target for activists to push back on colonization compared to large corporations with continents of lawyers, or the tourism economy that provides revenue for the island. Folks know that chaining elderly folks across construction access works, and it would be a PR nightmare to forcibly remove them. Scientific progress should be something that transcends politics but we're stuck with the legacy of colonization, and that makes us all a little poorer.

jameshart 3y ago
Torn is right. Mauna Kea is sacred to the world’s scientists too - it’s a perfect observing site; a spectacular volcano; a unique glacial environment; an isolated habitat for plant and animal life; it feels like there ought to be some way to share the gift of this improbable piece of land with the world. But yes, the way things have been done in the past affect the relationships we can have now.
- mulmen 3y ago
  > Mauna Kea is sacred to the world’s scientists too This is ugly phrasing given the history. I don’t think scientists use words like “sacred” to describe objective qualities. Its a false equivalence that undermines the real cultural damage.
  - pseg134 3y ago
    I think it’s about time for the Hawaiians to join the melting pot. We can tell them god isn’t real and then it won’t be sacred.
    - defrost 3y ago
      They're not monotheist - one god down is hardly enough. the mountain is the dwelling place of the goddess Poli'ahu, it is associated with the Hawaiian deities Lilinoe and Waiau, and the summit is considered the realm of the gods. https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2020/03/06/maunakea-the-fight-to-protect-sacred-land/ https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2020/03/06/maunakea-the-fi...
    - mulmen 3y ago
      Is this supposed to be a joke? If so it’s not a very good one. How much do you know about Hawaiian beliefs? You seem to assume Hawaiian culture is based on a monotheistic religion but that’s not the only option and certainly not required for a site to be considered culturally sacred.
  - jabits 3y ago
    Not at all. Pursuit of knowledge is sacred with many cultures. “Native Hawaiians” make up about 10% of the population, many of which of which support these kind of projects. They want their kids to live in a world that values knowledge like anyone else. There is always a vocal group that does not want change. And unlike like devastating resource destruction projects like mining, these facilities can be removed, just like the wind turbines so many complain about. Hawaii needs all the non-tourist projects we can get.
mdksososks 3y ago
Ethnonationalism is disgusting, whether it's a European culture or an indigenous one, right? If the group holding up the development of this telescope was white Christians claiming it would bring about the wrath of God, we would call them backwards, and barbaric, but because it's a non white culture, we wear kid gloves when talking about them. The double standard is shocking.
- petsfed 3y ago
  I'm not sure that "conquered people still agitating as their former group, against their conquerors" qualifies as ethnonationalism. I think there have to be claims of ethnic superiority, deliberate exclusion of other ethnicities and nationalities, etc etc In other words, a group of people whose internationally-recognised sovereignty was taken from them under threat of arms is not engaging in ethnonationalism by demanding that some portion of that sovereignty be restored. That's not the part of Nazi Germany that people object to, either.
hokuula 3y ago
See my reply to petsfed. Regarding the Native Hawaiian's say, they do. This is a liberal democracy, and their voice is heard, quite loudly, especially the fraction that support the sovereignty movement. If we start parceling out the use of public land by ethnicity, we go down a dark road. But from an electoral point of view, the Office of Hawaiian Affairs is an elected body, and in recent history those that are either pro or neutral on the TMT have been getting elected. >The TMT is also a comparatively easy target for activists to push back on colonization compared to large corporations with continents of lawyers, or the tourism economy that provides revenue for the island. That's true. They are picking on an easy target that is not harming them or their movement. They are delaying progress for an idea (sovereignty) that most of the people in Hawaii do not agree with. It's politics impeding science, yet again. But since it's done from the "right" side of politics, it seems to get a pass from people where it would not be in other instances.
- petsfed 3y ago
  Thank you for correcting me on how things are right now. The uniformity of resistance to the TMT has not been clear to me. I will say that I don't think it's a question of the "right" side. Rather it's a question of trying to right a historic wrong, and to practice what the US preaches. Absent all else, I'm pro-telescope. I worked with a bunch of people who collected data on Mauna Kea, and one of the few astrophysical publications I worked on used data collected at Keck. But the history of American colonization is much too recent to ignore, and I think every interaction with native Hawaiians is necessarily done in the shadow of that history. A through line of American interventionism is the claim that small nations ought to be free to chart their own course (be it freedom from Spain, or communist Russia, or the concept of communism). I generally advocate for the US to practice what it preaches, because another through line is that the US almost always operates according to the idea that it's only self-determination free of foreign meddling if the small nation works in concert with American ambitions. Queen Liliʻuokalani was overthrown in the midst of a campaign to restore suffrage to her subjects. The colonizers had previously forced her brother to sign a constitution that stripped most native Hawaiians of the right to vote in their own country, and grant the vote to non-native, non-subjects with sufficient wealth and/or land holdings. That constitution is frequently called the Bayonet Constitution because of the circumstances surrounding Kalākaua signing it.

jameshart 3y ago

Torn is right. Mauna Kea is sacred to the world’s scientists too - it’s a perfect observing site; a spectacular volcano; a unique glacial environment; an isolated habitat for plant and animal life; it feels like there ought to be some way to share the gift of this improbable piece of land with the world. But yes, the way things have been done in the past affect the relationships we can have now.

mulmen 3y ago
> Mauna Kea is sacred to the world’s scientists too This is ugly phrasing given the history. I don’t think scientists use words like “sacred” to describe objective qualities. Its a false equivalence that undermines the real cultural damage.
- pseg134 3y ago
  I think it’s about time for the Hawaiians to join the melting pot. We can tell them god isn’t real and then it won’t be sacred.
  - defrost 3y ago
    They're not monotheist - one god down is hardly enough. the mountain is the dwelling place of the goddess Poli'ahu, it is associated with the Hawaiian deities Lilinoe and Waiau, and the summit is considered the realm of the gods. https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2020/03/06/maunakea-the-fight-to-protect-sacred-land/ https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2020/03/06/maunakea-the-fi...
  - mulmen 3y ago
    Is this supposed to be a joke? If so it’s not a very good one. How much do you know about Hawaiian beliefs? You seem to assume Hawaiian culture is based on a monotheistic religion but that’s not the only option and certainly not required for a site to be considered culturally sacred.
- jabits 3y ago
  Not at all. Pursuit of knowledge is sacred with many cultures. “Native Hawaiians” make up about 10% of the population, many of which of which support these kind of projects. They want their kids to live in a world that values knowledge like anyone else. There is always a vocal group that does not want change. And unlike like devastating resource destruction projects like mining, these facilities can be removed, just like the wind turbines so many complain about. Hawaii needs all the non-tourist projects we can get.

mdksososks 3y ago

Ethnonationalism is disgusting, whether it's a European culture or an indigenous one, right? If the group holding up the development of this telescope was white Christians claiming it would bring about the wrath of God, we would call them backwards, and barbaric, but because it's a non white culture, we wear kid gloves when talking about them. The double standard is shocking.

petsfed 3y ago
I'm not sure that "conquered people still agitating as their former group, against their conquerors" qualifies as ethnonationalism. I think there have to be claims of ethnic superiority, deliberate exclusion of other ethnicities and nationalities, etc etc In other words, a group of people whose internationally-recognised sovereignty was taken from them under threat of arms is not engaging in ethnonationalism by demanding that some portion of that sovereignty be restored. That's not the part of Nazi Germany that people object to, either.

hokuula 3y ago

See my reply to petsfed. Regarding the Native Hawaiian's say, they do. This is a liberal democracy, and their voice is heard, quite loudly, especially the fraction that support the sovereignty movement. If we start parceling out the use of public land by ethnicity, we go down a dark road. But from an electoral point of view, the Office of Hawaiian Affairs is an elected body, and in recent history those that are either pro or neutral on the TMT have been getting elected. >The TMT is also a comparatively easy target for activists to push back on colonization compared to large corporations with continents of lawyers, or the tourism economy that provides revenue for the island. That's true. They are picking on an easy target that is not harming them or their movement. They are delaying progress for an idea (sovereignty) that most of the people in Hawaii do not agree with. It's politics impeding science, yet again. But since it's done from the "right" side of politics, it seems to get a pass from people where it would not be in other instances.

petsfed 3y ago
Thank you for correcting me on how things are right now. The uniformity of resistance to the TMT has not been clear to me. I will say that I don't think it's a question of the "right" side. Rather it's a question of trying to right a historic wrong, and to practice what the US preaches. Absent all else, I'm pro-telescope. I worked with a bunch of people who collected data on Mauna Kea, and one of the few astrophysical publications I worked on used data collected at Keck. But the history of American colonization is much too recent to ignore, and I think every interaction with native Hawaiians is necessarily done in the shadow of that history. A through line of American interventionism is the claim that small nations ought to be free to chart their own course (be it freedom from Spain, or communist Russia, or the concept of communism). I generally advocate for the US to practice what it preaches, because another through line is that the US almost always operates according to the idea that it's only self-determination free of foreign meddling if the small nation works in concert with American ambitions. Queen Liliʻuokalani was overthrown in the midst of a campaign to restore suffrage to her subjects. The colonizers had previously forced her brother to sign a constitution that stripped most native Hawaiians of the right to vote in their own country, and grant the vote to non-native, non-subjects with sufficient wealth and/or land holdings. That constitution is frequently called the Bayonet Constitution because of the circumstances surrounding Kalākaua signing it.