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Having worked at Facebook, albeit a long time ago. It’s far more likely that a conflict of events caused a false positive of an Automated spam system than Faceb

Having worked at Facebook, albeit a long time ago. It’s far more likely that a conflict of events caused a false positive of an Automated spam system than Facebook giving a crap about privacy campaigns that hurt revenue. But alas, we humans love our conspiracy theories because they tell a more interesting story.

guax 3y ago
I agree. I don't think Facebook thinks for a second about privacy related issues.
- freedomben 3y ago
  I love the EFF, but let's be honest: they're not a threat to Facebook. It's like the elephant thinking about the ant. I would be overjoyed if someday that changes, but that still wouldn't be relevant to a flagging today.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    > It's like the elephant thinking about the ant. Accidentally a perfect analogy, because elephants do think about ants, and take steps to avoid them. The only other small animal they avoid is bees (not mice). And just like ants, the EFF are one group that could have lots of tiny little warriors scaling up inside Facebook's fleshy trunk.
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      Similarly, I think there's something poetic about how elephants aren't blocked as much by fences--even if those look more significant to us humans--compared to trenches. With a fence, the mass of the elephant helps to knock it over. With a ditch or a hole, the elephant's mass works against it. It risks getting stuck or breaking important bones that are already under a lot of stresses.
    - birdman3131 3y ago
      Mythbusters showed them avoiding mice. Shocked the crew as like many people the really expected it to be an old wives tale
      - mandmandam 3y ago
        Imo that segment used a flawed design. > The MythBusters hid a mouse under a ball of elephant dung, planning to flip the dung over and reveal the mouse when the elephants approach it. When they flipped the dung and revealed the mouse, the approaching elephant was startled and quickly moved away from the mouse. The MythBusters then flipped dung without the mouse under it, but the elephants did not react at all. They then repeated their first experiment to confirm their results, and the elephant noticed the mouse and actively avoided it. Even though the elephants did not panic at the sight of the mouse, their acting cautiously around them was enough to have the myth be considered plausible, as it was not known whether the reaction was due to fear of or empathy for the mouse. ... Note how they were wild elephants, in an unnatural environment, facing weird dirt behavior. In any case, elephants still avoid ants.
em-bee 3y ago
but in the end the outcome is the same. malicious or not, facebook blocks what it should not block and that in itself is the problem. it being a false positive is not an excuse. if they don't fix this it just shows that facebook doesn't care about false positives either.
- lolinder 3y ago
  If Facebook could have a false positive rate of 0% and a false negative rate of 0%, they would absolutely make that happen. Unfortunately, due to the way statistics work, Facebook can pick its false positive rate or its false negative rate, but it's impossible to get to 0% false positives without just giving up on moderation altogether. We're not talking about capital punishment here, we're talking about social media, and Facebook appears to have made the very reasonable decision that it's worth accidentally rate limiting some innocent accounts in order to keep spam lower than would otherwise be possible.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > We're not talking about capital punishment here, we're talking about social media, and Facebook appears to have made the very reasonable decision that it's worth accidentally rate limiting some innocent accounts in order to keep spam lower than would otherwise be possible That sounds reasonable. Well, reasonable unless you happen to be (or care about) one of the innocents being accidentally punished, because some corporation's algorithm said so. Scholars have been worrying about this kind of thing in the real world's justice system for a long time (think of William Blackstone's "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer" quote, which is over 250 years old[0]; of the 1895 U.S. Supreme Court's "it is better to let the crime of a guilty person go unpunished than to condemn the innocent", and these weren't novel ideas, they go all the way back to the Romans). Where are the checks and balances for the online world? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_En...
    - lolinder 3y ago
      There's a world of difference between subjecting an innocent person to the penalties afforded for felonies by 18th-century English law and subjecting an innocent person to "limited access to [Facebook] for a few days." That difference completely changes the acceptable ratio of innocents-suffering to guilty-prevented-from-harm and the expected level of oversight for the process.
smrtinsert 3y ago
Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence
- xuhu 3y ago
  And in every user-hostile campaign there is a checkbox that needs to be ticked: can we make it look like incompetence ?
  - tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
    If you could prove beyond doubt that Facebook cared an iota about this person posting an EFF privacy tips link, I’ll lick any NYC subway pole you ask me to.
tcfhgj 3y ago
Facebook has had many privacy scandals in the past. And unfortunately, some conspiracy theories are true
wkat4242 3y ago
In this case some actual conspiracies have been ousted. Like when Cambridge Analytica used Facebook data to influence elections. There's a track record here. Not saying this is true but sadly sometimes it is.

guax 3y ago

I agree. I don't think Facebook thinks for a second about privacy related issues.

freedomben 3y ago
I love the EFF, but let's be honest: they're not a threat to Facebook. It's like the elephant thinking about the ant. I would be overjoyed if someday that changes, but that still wouldn't be relevant to a flagging today.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  > It's like the elephant thinking about the ant. Accidentally a perfect analogy, because elephants do think about ants, and take steps to avoid them. The only other small animal they avoid is bees (not mice). And just like ants, the EFF are one group that could have lots of tiny little warriors scaling up inside Facebook's fleshy trunk.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    Similarly, I think there's something poetic about how elephants aren't blocked as much by fences--even if those look more significant to us humans--compared to trenches. With a fence, the mass of the elephant helps to knock it over. With a ditch or a hole, the elephant's mass works against it. It risks getting stuck or breaking important bones that are already under a lot of stresses.
  - birdman3131 3y ago
    Mythbusters showed them avoiding mice. Shocked the crew as like many people the really expected it to be an old wives tale
    - mandmandam 3y ago
      Imo that segment used a flawed design. > The MythBusters hid a mouse under a ball of elephant dung, planning to flip the dung over and reveal the mouse when the elephants approach it. When they flipped the dung and revealed the mouse, the approaching elephant was startled and quickly moved away from the mouse. The MythBusters then flipped dung without the mouse under it, but the elephants did not react at all. They then repeated their first experiment to confirm their results, and the elephant noticed the mouse and actively avoided it. Even though the elephants did not panic at the sight of the mouse, their acting cautiously around them was enough to have the myth be considered plausible, as it was not known whether the reaction was due to fear of or empathy for the mouse. ... Note how they were wild elephants, in an unnatural environment, facing weird dirt behavior. In any case, elephants still avoid ants.

em-bee 3y ago

but in the end the outcome is the same. malicious or not, facebook blocks what it should not block and that in itself is the problem. it being a false positive is not an excuse. if they don't fix this it just shows that facebook doesn't care about false positives either.

lolinder 3y ago
If Facebook could have a false positive rate of 0% and a false negative rate of 0%, they would absolutely make that happen. Unfortunately, due to the way statistics work, Facebook can pick its false positive rate or its false negative rate, but it's impossible to get to 0% false positives without just giving up on moderation altogether. We're not talking about capital punishment here, we're talking about social media, and Facebook appears to have made the very reasonable decision that it's worth accidentally rate limiting some innocent accounts in order to keep spam lower than would otherwise be possible.
- logifail 3y ago
  > We're not talking about capital punishment here, we're talking about social media, and Facebook appears to have made the very reasonable decision that it's worth accidentally rate limiting some innocent accounts in order to keep spam lower than would otherwise be possible That sounds reasonable. Well, reasonable unless you happen to be (or care about) one of the innocents being accidentally punished, because some corporation's algorithm said so. Scholars have been worrying about this kind of thing in the real world's justice system for a long time (think of William Blackstone's "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer" quote, which is over 250 years old[0]; of the 1895 U.S. Supreme Court's "it is better to let the crime of a guilty person go unpunished than to condemn the innocent", and these weren't novel ideas, they go all the way back to the Romans). Where are the checks and balances for the online world? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_En...
  - lolinder 3y ago
    There's a world of difference between subjecting an innocent person to the penalties afforded for felonies by 18th-century English law and subjecting an innocent person to "limited access to [Facebook] for a few days." That difference completely changes the acceptable ratio of innocents-suffering to guilty-prevented-from-harm and the expected level of oversight for the process.

smrtinsert 3y ago

Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence

xuhu 3y ago
And in every user-hostile campaign there is a checkbox that needs to be ticked: can we make it look like incompetence ?
- tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
  If you could prove beyond doubt that Facebook cared an iota about this person posting an EFF privacy tips link, I’ll lick any NYC subway pole you ask me to.

tcfhgj 3y ago

Facebook has had many privacy scandals in the past. And unfortunately, some conspiracy theories are true

wkat4242 3y ago

In this case some actual conspiracies have been ousted. Like when Cambridge Analytica used Facebook data to influence elections. There's a track record here. Not saying this is true but sadly sometimes it is.