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How do you prevent those alternative ways of discovering products from getting flooded by masqueraded ads?

perihelions 3y ago
Prison for shills. And rewards for whistleblowing on illegal ads, garnished from the companies that paid for them. The same incentive mechanism that makes tax enforcement effective [0]. Fundamentally, ad markets can't hide from enforcement, so long as whoever's buying the ads is a commercial entity interacting with the financial system. Which it usually is: the primary reason to buy ads is to boost sales of something that's being sold on the open marketspace, overtly and conspicuously. (If it's being advertised, it must be conspicuous, right?) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_Whistleblower_Office?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_Whistleblower_Office?usesk... [late edit]: In short—if society wants to ban ads, that's a thing that's enforceable and difficult to evade.
- echelon 3y ago
  > Prison for shills. And rewards for whistleblowing on illegal ads, garnished from the companies that paid for them. I don't like advertising, but this sounds awful. What counts as "advertising"? Why can't groups of people climb up an attention gradient and build things? Lots of useful things could not exist without advertising.
  - perihelions 3y ago
    I'm replying to the comment asking about "masqueraded ads", i.e. shills. I'm not putting forward an opinion about what should or shouldn't be lawful, but opining that, should society choose to outlaw (a subset of?) ads, that's certainly an enforceable law. - "Why can't groups of people climb up an attention gradient and build things?" Why should the attention gradient be an auction market?
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Ye well I just don't want to risk jail for shilling for Ben and Jerries (the supreme ice cream for any occasion where you don't have guests, since it is so expansive). How would you enforce laws against shills? Doesn't many influencer work for free samples etc? I am way more worried for misuse of such laws than shills in the first place. I'd rather people just don't trust celebrities for consumer advice.
  - perihelions 3y ago
    - "Doesn't many influencer work for free samples etc?" By the letter of the law, that's a form of remuneration, and is mandatory to disclose. - "A “material connection” to the brand includes a personal, family, or employment relationship or a financial relationship – such as the brand paying you or giving you free or discounted products or services." https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/disclosures-101-social-media-influencers https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/disclosures-... ("Disclosures 101 for Social Media Influencers")
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    In the US influencers are legally required to disclose that they got free samples or remuneration for their reviews. Specifically in the body of whatever message or video contains the review.
Super_Jambo 3y ago
Same way you prevent any anti-social activity which is highly profitable?!? How do developed countries stop people cutting their products with cheaper alternatives? How do we enforce weights and measures legislation so every shop visit doesn't require you to lug along your own standard weights and scales? How do we stop investments being all scams (ok so this one has failed a bit in the US.) The answer is competent regulation with active enforcement. Tie reviews to a government issued ID. Enforce stiff penalties for any company found to be pissing in the communal data pool.
- Super_Jambo 3y ago
  A better question is: "How do you get legislation passed to regulate advertising when it controls almost every media and social media platform through which voters can get informed on the topic?" And if you have an answer to that I'd dearly love to hear it - I work at a campaign for electoral reform in the UK and we have near enough the exact same problem.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    I mean, historically to correct major inequalities and abuse of power by the ruling class, rail unions for example carried out bridge bombings. I'm not saying that's the answer. I'm not saying it's not the answer.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  The fact that so many people are so mystified at the idea of designing a society we want to live in is so much more depressing than any of the problems we face as a collective. We do not need tech innovators, corporations or pioneering extroverted CEOs to market-innovate solutions to the problems we have. We can simply lean on expertise and scientific consensus and mandate that it apply to various industries and our world as a whole, and drive society forward. The legal pen has power too and we can use it for more than just ensuring Disney has infinite copyrights, and in fact, should. It's not going to fix everything, of course. But a lot of major issues could see huge improvements if we simply used our Governmental processes to demand them. We KNOW how to make vehicles more efficient. We KNOW how to reduce other emissions. We KNOW that certain building practices and city policies are making numerous social ills worse. We know all of these things and we know how to stop them, but our politicians are content to ride out the collapse and cash their checks in the meantime and retire before the world falls apart.

Prison for shills. And rewards for whistleblowing on illegal ads, garnished from the companies that paid for them. The same incentive mechanism that makes tax enforcement effective [0]. Fundamentally, ad markets can't hide from enforcement, so long as whoever's buying the ads is a commercial entity interacting with the financial system. Which it usually is: the primary reason to buy ads is to boost sales of something that's being sold on the open marketspace, overtly and conspicuously. (If it's being advertised, it must be conspicuous, right?) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_Whistleblower_Office?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_Whistleblower_Office?usesk... [late edit]: In short—if society wants to ban ads, that's a thing that's enforceable and difficult to evade.

echelon 3y ago
> Prison for shills. And rewards for whistleblowing on illegal ads, garnished from the companies that paid for them. I don't like advertising, but this sounds awful. What counts as "advertising"? Why can't groups of people climb up an attention gradient and build things? Lots of useful things could not exist without advertising.
- perihelions 3y ago
  I'm replying to the comment asking about "masqueraded ads", i.e. shills. I'm not putting forward an opinion about what should or shouldn't be lawful, but opining that, should society choose to outlaw (a subset of?) ads, that's certainly an enforceable law. - "Why can't groups of people climb up an attention gradient and build things?" Why should the attention gradient be an auction market?
rightbyte 3y ago
Ye well I just don't want to risk jail for shilling for Ben and Jerries (the supreme ice cream for any occasion where you don't have guests, since it is so expansive). How would you enforce laws against shills? Doesn't many influencer work for free samples etc? I am way more worried for misuse of such laws than shills in the first place. I'd rather people just don't trust celebrities for consumer advice.
- perihelions 3y ago
  - "Doesn't many influencer work for free samples etc?" By the letter of the law, that's a form of remuneration, and is mandatory to disclose. - "A “material connection” to the brand includes a personal, family, or employment relationship or a financial relationship – such as the brand paying you or giving you free or discounted products or services." https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/disclosures-101-social-media-influencers https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/disclosures-... ("Disclosures 101 for Social Media Influencers")
- HWR_14 3y ago
  In the US influencers are legally required to disclose that they got free samples or remuneration for their reviews. Specifically in the body of whatever message or video contains the review.

Super_Jambo 3y ago

Same way you prevent any anti-social activity which is highly profitable?!? How do developed countries stop people cutting their products with cheaper alternatives? How do we enforce weights and measures legislation so every shop visit doesn't require you to lug along your own standard weights and scales? How do we stop investments being all scams (ok so this one has failed a bit in the US.) The answer is competent regulation with active enforcement. Tie reviews to a government issued ID. Enforce stiff penalties for any company found to be pissing in the communal data pool.

Super_Jambo 3y ago
A better question is: "How do you get legislation passed to regulate advertising when it controls almost every media and social media platform through which voters can get informed on the topic?" And if you have an answer to that I'd dearly love to hear it - I work at a campaign for electoral reform in the UK and we have near enough the exact same problem.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  I mean, historically to correct major inequalities and abuse of power by the ruling class, rail unions for example carried out bridge bombings. I'm not saying that's the answer. I'm not saying it's not the answer.
ToucanLoucan 3y ago
The fact that so many people are so mystified at the idea of designing a society we want to live in is so much more depressing than any of the problems we face as a collective. We do not need tech innovators, corporations or pioneering extroverted CEOs to market-innovate solutions to the problems we have. We can simply lean on expertise and scientific consensus and mandate that it apply to various industries and our world as a whole, and drive society forward. The legal pen has power too and we can use it for more than just ensuring Disney has infinite copyrights, and in fact, should. It's not going to fix everything, of course. But a lot of major issues could see huge improvements if we simply used our Governmental processes to demand them. We KNOW how to make vehicles more efficient. We KNOW how to reduce other emissions. We KNOW that certain building practices and city policies are making numerous social ills worse. We know all of these things and we know how to stop them, but our politicians are content to ride out the collapse and cash their checks in the meantime and retire before the world falls apart.