4 ms·

It's amusing to me how much it seems like the EU has a monkeys paw when it comes to tech regulation. There will be regret in 10 years as the US economy continue

by cm2012 3y ago

It's amusing to me how much it seems like the EU has a monkeys paw when it comes to tech regulation. There will be regret in 10 years as the US economy continues to grow and the EU shrinks.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>There will be regret in 10 years as the US economy continues to grow and the EU shrinks How would we regret not letting US tech giants misuse our private data? How would letting them do that improve our economy? Innovations and technology means a lot more than targeted ad-based spy-ware where the US is king and the EU is not even competing. We should be competing who gets to provide a better standard of living for it's citizens not who's country's corporations Fe to exploit everyone to enrich a select few. Also, let me get back from my year long paid parental leave, to tell you why having the strongest economy is not the most important thing in life. https://imgflip.com/i/80vik0 https://imgflip.com/i/80vik0
- cm2012 3y ago
  All of these regulations impact smaller tech companies more than the big players. I've worked with literally 100 plus start-ups from seed stage all the way to post IPO. About 15 of those were EU companies. From my experience, the experience of the US and EU companies is dramatically different. EU companies are at a dramatic disadvantage when it comes to promoting their products. It's much harder to track what's working and what's not, and more than that, there's a huge state of uncertainty. Dev teams don't know, for instance, whether this pixel or that server to server integration might get them in trouble for sure, so it just delays everything. So EU tech start-ups tend to languish in obscurity to a far greater degree, which means less of a feedback loop to improve the product, which overall means less tech wins in europe. Start-ups follow a power law where most fail, but 5% succeed. This means you need a lot of shots on goal. When every shot on goal takes 3x the effort and cost... It's not just tech privacy regulations by any means, but all of this together means that the gap between the US and EU continues to accelerate. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bbotjc/eu_vs_us_gdp_per_capita_adjusted_for_ppp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bbotjc/eu_vs_us_gdp... And no, I think the "privacy" gains are basically meaningless and not worth the trade-off. And I would bet $100 any time that by 2030 that gap will continue to grow at the same rate.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Every regulation in same says hinders business. We don't need to get into a race to the bottom just because other countries sacrifice consumer privacy for the good of their corporations. I've also worked at startups both side of the Atlantic and I slept a lot better following EU regs, without the dirty feeling of having written scripts to creep on vulnerable people for the benefit of the company that was increasing their cost of living and treating them like statistical cattle.
    - dmix 3y ago
      I'd bet a ton of EU programmers would have preferred staying in EU to work because there's actually jobs there. Or jobs that don't just pay $75k. It's not just privacy regulations hurting EU, those are easier to defend, it's the general deep rooted nature which makes that the automatic solution to every single problem without regard for the bigger picture. And those policies are always a one way street whether it benefited every one or not in retrospect. What's the end goal? A perfectly regulated, moral economy that never grows and relies on immigrants to stabilize GDP numbers? If these new regs also came at the same pace as reforms for previous ones that actively hurt these countries it'd be way easier to agree with as a general rule. Instead it's just another one thrown on the pile and the only new jobs are for administrators to enforce them.
  - dmix 3y ago
    > All of these regulations impact smaller tech companies more than the big players. It's also often of questionable value. Attacking cookie banners on HN was taboo for years but while they allegedly helped protect our privacy, targeted advertising immediately adapted - and yet in 2023 - every user continues to be burdened with the casino of modal boxes (they are never the same place or colours or labels) on every website (not just EU users), hoping they get one with a clear "reject all" button so it goes away the fastest, rarely because they care about the implications.
    - LelouBil 3y ago
      to be fair, the "casino of modal boxes" is not GDPR compliant. The GDPR says refusing non essential cookies should be as easy as accepting them. Enforcement is happening for cases like this, but it is very slow....
- epups 3y ago
  The problem is that to afford those social benefits, Europe inevitably also needs to care for its economy. Since tech is now the biggest economic sector and will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future, it is concerning if the tech sector in the Europe gets suffocated by regulations. Perhaps you think this particular one is fine, but in general I agree with the sentiment that the regulatory approach in EU hinders progress and economic growth for not so tangible trade-offs.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Sure, but Europe's inability to compete with the US in consumer facing software is not because EU as stricter privacy regulations, but because of its incredibly diverse linguistic, legal and cultural fragmentation which makes gaining "escape velocity" a huge challenge for any business not just tech, versus the US where (nearly) everyone is an American citizen (there is no EU citizenship) and speaks the same language everywhere (there is no EU language) and has similar culture, business, spending habits, regardless of state. Gaining escape velocity is just not possible in the EU where every member state still has full legal sovereignty, a different language, different governing and business laws, different governing body, different economy, sometimes different currency, different legal framework, different military and different consumer habits. The EU has unified some items like the currency for most members and some common laws, but still too few compared to the US which is a full-on country, not a membership of sovereign nations. Also, while the US has undoubtably won the tech war financially speaking, due to it being unscrupulous at any level including privacy and justifying it to itself as "well China does it anyway so we should do it too otherwise we loose", but if you were to ask the average American on the street, and especially those queuing at the blood-bank to donate blood the second time this month to afford to pay bills, what would they prefer to have, either Europe's social benefits or the US winning the tech superiority and having the most tech billionaires, I think the answer would be clear and not the one you'd like to hear.
    - cm2012 3y ago
      The privacy regulations are brutal though. Let me give you an example. Say you want to target HR decision makers using Facebook ads. The most efficient and cutting edge way (that we do in the USA) is make a broad, master audience to target, and use "conversion events" (something that happens on your website that correlations to revenue later, like a qualified lead coming) to train the Meta algorithm to find more of them. In Europe you used to be able do this across the entire EU, the Meta would target efficiently and could automatically use different language ads. Because FB's targeting algorithm is such a powerful AI, it could find qualified leads. Now, many EU companies feel they can't or shouldn't use the tags or server to server integrations needed to power conversion events. Which means they have to do manual campaigns by country which is much less efficient. This is just one solid example of many I've run into.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  > Also, let me get back from my year long paid parental leave, to tell you why having the strongest economy is not the most important thing in life. Yeah and then maybe die early of cancer because you don’t even have resources for medical treatment. (Cancer mortality is considerably higher in Europe than the US due to less sophisticated treatment/medical care) Meanwhile I could take a year of parental leave just by quitting and using my excess savings from my higher wage. The kicker? Afterwards I could find a new full time non-contractor job, something notoriously difficult in Europe due to your at will labor laws. You need resources to pay for social amenities as the collapse of the NHS is rapidly showing.
jeena 3y ago
Btw. Norway is not a member state of the European Union (EU). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93European_Union_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93European_Union_...
oaijertilawje 3y ago
Yes. I remember American politicians saying this in the 2010s. And in the 2000s. And in the 1990s.
- cm2012 3y ago
  They've literally been right the whole time, check the other link I posted.
- Calvin02 3y ago
  Perhaps looking at the latest GDP growth numbers will explain what they were saying. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mnk1gp/eu_euro_area_and_us_gdp_growth_from_2000_to_2022/?rdt=57385 https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mnk1gp/eu_euro_area...
droopyEyelids 3y ago
This is actually a reaction to what you're describing. It's already 10 years later. All the tech companies that have buoyed the USA economy are basically a balance of trade issue for the EU, with all the money spent double Irish departing the EU and making its way to the USA.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Balance of trade is irrelevant. Europe is crappily run and does a terrible job encouraging capital formation. Seriously, why would anyone in their right mind ever invest in tech creation in Europe? That’s right - they don’t. And it makes Europe poorer and less dynamic.
jalict 3y ago
If we get human attention back in favour of the economy, then I think that’s a pretty good deal.
- lambdaba 3y ago
  Are there signs this is working though?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
kzrdude 3y ago
That sounds a lot like “Yes the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.”
- cm2012 3y ago
  Its up to you if you want to conflate frankly harmless and 99% anonymized ad tracking with destroying the planet.
  - kzrdude 3y ago
    Economy is not an end unto itself, I think
  - anonymousab 3y ago
    > harmless and 99% anonymized ad tracking Let's be serious now, not even the biggest ad industry proponents really believe that line.
    - ChoHag 3y ago
      [dead]
    - cm2012 3y ago
      I have literally never seen actual evidence of harm from ad tracking by Google or Meta, even though I've asked dozens of times on HN. Please dont say Cambridge Analytica, which is so meaningless it hurts.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  This is melodrama. If you want to talk about destroying the world, think about how much comparative press coverage and regulation tech is getting right now compared to big oil/gas (still subsidized heavily), big ag, etc. - things that are actually destroying the world.
zadler 3y ago
Modulo dollar / sovereign debt crisis
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by cm2012 3y ago

It's amusing to me how much it seems like the EU has a monkeys paw when it comes to tech regulation. There will be regret in 10 years as the US economy continues to grow and the EU shrinks.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>There will be regret in 10 years as the US economy continues to grow and the EU shrinks How would we regret not letting US tech giants misuse our private data? How would letting them do that improve our economy? Innovations and technology means a lot more than targeted ad-based spy-ware where the US is king and the EU is not even competing. We should be competing who gets to provide a better standard of living for it's citizens not who's country's corporations Fe to exploit everyone to enrich a select few. Also, let me get back from my year long paid parental leave, to tell you why having the strongest economy is not the most important thing in life. https://imgflip.com/i/80vik0 https://imgflip.com/i/80vik0

cm2012 3y ago
All of these regulations impact smaller tech companies more than the big players. I've worked with literally 100 plus start-ups from seed stage all the way to post IPO. About 15 of those were EU companies. From my experience, the experience of the US and EU companies is dramatically different. EU companies are at a dramatic disadvantage when it comes to promoting their products. It's much harder to track what's working and what's not, and more than that, there's a huge state of uncertainty. Dev teams don't know, for instance, whether this pixel or that server to server integration might get them in trouble for sure, so it just delays everything. So EU tech start-ups tend to languish in obscurity to a far greater degree, which means less of a feedback loop to improve the product, which overall means less tech wins in europe. Start-ups follow a power law where most fail, but 5% succeed. This means you need a lot of shots on goal. When every shot on goal takes 3x the effort and cost... It's not just tech privacy regulations by any means, but all of this together means that the gap between the US and EU continues to accelerate. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bbotjc/eu_vs_us_gdp_per_capita_adjusted_for_ppp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bbotjc/eu_vs_us_gdp... And no, I think the "privacy" gains are basically meaningless and not worth the trade-off. And I would bet $100 any time that by 2030 that gap will continue to grow at the same rate.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Every regulation in same says hinders business. We don't need to get into a race to the bottom just because other countries sacrifice consumer privacy for the good of their corporations. I've also worked at startups both side of the Atlantic and I slept a lot better following EU regs, without the dirty feeling of having written scripts to creep on vulnerable people for the benefit of the company that was increasing their cost of living and treating them like statistical cattle.
  - dmix 3y ago
    I'd bet a ton of EU programmers would have preferred staying in EU to work because there's actually jobs there. Or jobs that don't just pay $75k. It's not just privacy regulations hurting EU, those are easier to defend, it's the general deep rooted nature which makes that the automatic solution to every single problem without regard for the bigger picture. And those policies are always a one way street whether it benefited every one or not in retrospect. What's the end goal? A perfectly regulated, moral economy that never grows and relies on immigrants to stabilize GDP numbers? If these new regs also came at the same pace as reforms for previous ones that actively hurt these countries it'd be way easier to agree with as a general rule. Instead it's just another one thrown on the pile and the only new jobs are for administrators to enforce them.
- dmix 3y ago
  > All of these regulations impact smaller tech companies more than the big players. It's also often of questionable value. Attacking cookie banners on HN was taboo for years but while they allegedly helped protect our privacy, targeted advertising immediately adapted - and yet in 2023 - every user continues to be burdened with the casino of modal boxes (they are never the same place or colours or labels) on every website (not just EU users), hoping they get one with a clear "reject all" button so it goes away the fastest, rarely because they care about the implications.
  - LelouBil 3y ago
    to be fair, the "casino of modal boxes" is not GDPR compliant. The GDPR says refusing non essential cookies should be as easy as accepting them. Enforcement is happening for cases like this, but it is very slow....
epups 3y ago
The problem is that to afford those social benefits, Europe inevitably also needs to care for its economy. Since tech is now the biggest economic sector and will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future, it is concerning if the tech sector in the Europe gets suffocated by regulations. Perhaps you think this particular one is fine, but in general I agree with the sentiment that the regulatory approach in EU hinders progress and economic growth for not so tangible trade-offs.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Sure, but Europe's inability to compete with the US in consumer facing software is not because EU as stricter privacy regulations, but because of its incredibly diverse linguistic, legal and cultural fragmentation which makes gaining "escape velocity" a huge challenge for any business not just tech, versus the US where (nearly) everyone is an American citizen (there is no EU citizenship) and speaks the same language everywhere (there is no EU language) and has similar culture, business, spending habits, regardless of state. Gaining escape velocity is just not possible in the EU where every member state still has full legal sovereignty, a different language, different governing and business laws, different governing body, different economy, sometimes different currency, different legal framework, different military and different consumer habits. The EU has unified some items like the currency for most members and some common laws, but still too few compared to the US which is a full-on country, not a membership of sovereign nations. Also, while the US has undoubtably won the tech war financially speaking, due to it being unscrupulous at any level including privacy and justifying it to itself as "well China does it anyway so we should do it too otherwise we loose", but if you were to ask the average American on the street, and especially those queuing at the blood-bank to donate blood the second time this month to afford to pay bills, what would they prefer to have, either Europe's social benefits or the US winning the tech superiority and having the most tech billionaires, I think the answer would be clear and not the one you'd like to hear.
  - cm2012 3y ago
    The privacy regulations are brutal though. Let me give you an example. Say you want to target HR decision makers using Facebook ads. The most efficient and cutting edge way (that we do in the USA) is make a broad, master audience to target, and use "conversion events" (something that happens on your website that correlations to revenue later, like a qualified lead coming) to train the Meta algorithm to find more of them. In Europe you used to be able do this across the entire EU, the Meta would target efficiently and could automatically use different language ads. Because FB's targeting algorithm is such a powerful AI, it could find qualified leads. Now, many EU companies feel they can't or shouldn't use the tags or server to server integrations needed to power conversion events. Which means they have to do manual campaigns by country which is much less efficient. This is just one solid example of many I've run into.
whimsicalism 3y ago
> Also, let me get back from my year long paid parental leave, to tell you why having the strongest economy is not the most important thing in life. Yeah and then maybe die early of cancer because you don’t even have resources for medical treatment. (Cancer mortality is considerably higher in Europe than the US due to less sophisticated treatment/medical care) Meanwhile I could take a year of parental leave just by quitting and using my excess savings from my higher wage. The kicker? Afterwards I could find a new full time non-contractor job, something notoriously difficult in Europe due to your at will labor laws. You need resources to pay for social amenities as the collapse of the NHS is rapidly showing.

jeena 3y ago

Btw. Norway is not a member state of the European Union (EU). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93European_Union_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93European_Union_...

oaijertilawje 3y ago

Yes. I remember American politicians saying this in the 2010s. And in the 2000s. And in the 1990s.

cm2012 3y ago
They've literally been right the whole time, check the other link I posted.
Calvin02 3y ago
Perhaps looking at the latest GDP growth numbers will explain what they were saying. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mnk1gp/eu_euro_area_and_us_gdp_growth_from_2000_to_2022/?rdt=57385 https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/mnk1gp/eu_euro_area...

droopyEyelids 3y ago

This is actually a reaction to what you're describing. It's already 10 years later. All the tech companies that have buoyed the USA economy are basically a balance of trade issue for the EU, with all the money spent double Irish departing the EU and making its way to the USA.

whimsicalism 3y ago
Balance of trade is irrelevant. Europe is crappily run and does a terrible job encouraging capital formation. Seriously, why would anyone in their right mind ever invest in tech creation in Europe? That’s right - they don’t. And it makes Europe poorer and less dynamic.

jalict 3y ago

If we get human attention back in favour of the economy, then I think that’s a pretty good deal.

lambdaba 3y ago
Are there signs this is working though?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

kzrdude 3y ago

That sounds a lot like “Yes the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.”

cm2012 3y ago
Its up to you if you want to conflate frankly harmless and 99% anonymized ad tracking with destroying the planet.
- kzrdude 3y ago
  Economy is not an end unto itself, I think
- anonymousab 3y ago
  > harmless and 99% anonymized ad tracking Let's be serious now, not even the biggest ad industry proponents really believe that line.
  - ChoHag 3y ago
    [dead]
  - cm2012 3y ago
    I have literally never seen actual evidence of harm from ad tracking by Google or Meta, even though I've asked dozens of times on HN. Please dont say Cambridge Analytica, which is so meaningless it hurts.
whimsicalism 3y ago
This is melodrama. If you want to talk about destroying the world, think about how much comparative press coverage and regulation tech is getting right now compared to big oil/gas (still subsidized heavily), big ag, etc. - things that are actually destroying the world.

zadler 3y ago

Modulo dollar / sovereign debt crisis

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]