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> How exactly are they different from Apple, then Because Apple sells the highest security mass market consumer device ever made? Because Apple brought easy to

> How exactly are they different from Apple, then Because Apple sells the highest security mass market consumer device ever made? Because Apple brought easy to use, end to end encryption to the masses with iMessage? No clue what your point here is besides regurgitating some non-specific conspiracy theory about the extent of Apple’s cooperation with the government. > That's the Free Market's job. Regulation is not the free market’s job, as you evidently believe since you are so excited about digital markets regulation. Maybe they could start by not categorizing wood pellets shipped across the Atlantic and produced from strip mining forests in southeastern United States as “green energy.” > Or as effective as their USB-C regulation How was USB-C regulation effective? Yeah Apple complied, but are customers’ lives better? In aggregate? By what metric? I for one had to buy a new iPhone cable for the first time in half a decade to connect my phone to my car. By its stated aims, the regulation was not effective in my case.

Apocryphon 3y ago
The mere fact that you had to buy a cable does not speak to the efficacy or lack thereof of the regulation, any more than the first tweet I found by searching "USB-C Apple" does. https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706760798662758517 https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706760798662758517 I suppose hackers really are digging EU regulation in this area! https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706766113672212932 https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706766113672212932 Gamers too? https://twitter.com/VadimYuryev/status/1704507228353351741 https://twitter.com/VadimYuryev/status/1704507228353351741
- shuckles 3y ago
  I was not the one claiming the regulation was effective, so the burden of proof isn't on me.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Ah, but you are claiming that the regulation was ineffective, by advancing your anecdotal case as evidence. And with one simple search there is at least two anecdata points that cancel out yours.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    You made no claim. A single contradiction is not a refutation or even a counterarguement. It is the bare-minimum disagreement you can assert without attacking the speaker instead of the problem: https://issuepedia.org/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg https://issuepedia.org/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreeme... This argument may not be worth continuing if you don't have anything left to say.
    - shuckles 3y ago
      You: The regulation to require USB-C was effective. [no citation] Me: By what standard? In my specific case, it wasn’t. You: Blah blah blah burden of proof hierarchy of disagreement. So do you have any citation or do you plan to keep deflecting? So far, my anecdote has been the only evidence provided about the matter, even if it’s weak which I already conceded.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > So do you have any citation or do you plan to keep deflecting? Deflecting what? Nobody here cares about your metric of success, which so far seems to be substantiated on the same marginal frustration that people felt with the 30-pin to Lightning switch. Nothing you have presented suggests a populist rejection of USB-C. If anything, it's actually much more popular than Apple's standard. > How was USB-C regulation effective? Yeah Apple complied, but are customers’ lives better? In aggregate? By what metric? ...did you miss all those links of people plugging their iPhones into displays and class-compliant devices? People programming and gaming and working with standard audio equipment using a single cable, like they should have been able to do from the start? Customers lives are great right now. People who own non-Apple products like the Nintendo Switch or cough cough a Macbook can now charge their iPhone using the same cable. Households that avoid Apple products waste less money and material owning and buying cables for one device. Lack of MFi certification means that the cheap cables don't have to be built like shit. Hell, the simple fact that you can break the connector to remove it from your phone instead of taking it to the Genius Bar so you can get the whole IC board replaced. I'm sure it's frustrating for Apple, losing out on the licensing fees and killing their dream of owning a serial standard. Sucks to suck.
smoldesu 3y ago
> Because Apple sells the highest security Citation: Apple > Regulation is not the free market’s job, as you evidently believe Innovation is. The European Union was not founded to build a better Nuclear Reactor (nor would it tangibly impact their citizen's freedom). Regulating the market those citizens participate in does. I'm not so sure why you're complaining about this so much. If Apple's self-righteous crusade to own all digital IP was truly worth it, they could abandon Europe and continue on. But it's not- for one because they value money, and for two because they already work with FIVE-EYES and every domestic European nation to surveil on their users. No conspiracy, Apple documents it themselves: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ > I for one had to buy a new iPhone cable for the first time in half a decade to connect my phone to my car. By its stated aims, the regulation was not effective in my case. Cope.
- shuckles 3y ago
  You do realize, if anything, the DMA itself is cope. The EU's consumer electronics industry has been lapped by the rest of the world, and now all they can do is nitpick connectors and firmly demand that Apple support something almost no users care about.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    How do you explain Japan also mandating this? As I recall, South Korea, India, Australia, and several other nations have also been calling for Apple to open up iOS as well.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > the DMA itself is cope It's a democratically passed bill to protect a market from extensive damage. Here are the people who voted for it: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/242706/IMCO%20Voting%20Session%2022-23%20November%202021%20(final%20votes).html.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/242706/IMCO%20Voting%... Again, if Apple shared your opinion then maybe they'd call Europe's bluff. Again, Apple is chronically incapable of doing this because it would mean being eaten alive by shareholders that make $DIS owners look rational. Leaving the European market would be the trigger-pull of Apple's suicide. > and now all they can do is nitpick connectors ...you're still mad about a $4 gas station cable? Seriously? > and firmly demand that Apple support something almost no users care about. "Why is the United States wasting their time with these Rockefeller people? They're coping over things the unbridled success of Standard Oil, pushing legislation that none of their customers care about!" - imagine the free market with a bunch of yous at the helm.

Apocryphon 3y ago

The mere fact that you had to buy a cable does not speak to the efficacy or lack thereof of the regulation, any more than the first tweet I found by searching "USB-C Apple" does. https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706760798662758517 https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706760798662758517 I suppose hackers really are digging EU regulation in this area! https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706766113672212932 https://twitter.com/trunarla/status/1706766113672212932 Gamers too? https://twitter.com/VadimYuryev/status/1704507228353351741 https://twitter.com/VadimYuryev/status/1704507228353351741

shuckles 3y ago
I was not the one claiming the regulation was effective, so the burden of proof isn't on me.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Ah, but you are claiming that the regulation was ineffective, by advancing your anecdotal case as evidence. And with one simple search there is at least two anecdata points that cancel out yours.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  You made no claim. A single contradiction is not a refutation or even a counterarguement. It is the bare-minimum disagreement you can assert without attacking the speaker instead of the problem: https://issuepedia.org/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg https://issuepedia.org/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreeme... This argument may not be worth continuing if you don't have anything left to say.
  - shuckles 3y ago
    You: The regulation to require USB-C was effective. [no citation] Me: By what standard? In my specific case, it wasn’t. You: Blah blah blah burden of proof hierarchy of disagreement. So do you have any citation or do you plan to keep deflecting? So far, my anecdote has been the only evidence provided about the matter, even if it’s weak which I already conceded.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > So do you have any citation or do you plan to keep deflecting? Deflecting what? Nobody here cares about your metric of success, which so far seems to be substantiated on the same marginal frustration that people felt with the 30-pin to Lightning switch. Nothing you have presented suggests a populist rejection of USB-C. If anything, it's actually much more popular than Apple's standard. > How was USB-C regulation effective? Yeah Apple complied, but are customers’ lives better? In aggregate? By what metric? ...did you miss all those links of people plugging their iPhones into displays and class-compliant devices? People programming and gaming and working with standard audio equipment using a single cable, like they should have been able to do from the start? Customers lives are great right now. People who own non-Apple products like the Nintendo Switch or cough cough a Macbook can now charge their iPhone using the same cable. Households that avoid Apple products waste less money and material owning and buying cables for one device. Lack of MFi certification means that the cheap cables don't have to be built like shit. Hell, the simple fact that you can break the connector to remove it from your phone instead of taking it to the Genius Bar so you can get the whole IC board replaced. I'm sure it's frustrating for Apple, losing out on the licensing fees and killing their dream of owning a serial standard. Sucks to suck.

smoldesu 3y ago

> Because Apple sells the highest security Citation: Apple > Regulation is not the free market’s job, as you evidently believe Innovation is. The European Union was not founded to build a better Nuclear Reactor (nor would it tangibly impact their citizen's freedom). Regulating the market those citizens participate in does. I'm not so sure why you're complaining about this so much. If Apple's self-righteous crusade to own all digital IP was truly worth it, they could abandon Europe and continue on. But it's not- for one because they value money, and for two because they already work with FIVE-EYES and every domestic European nation to surveil on their users. No conspiracy, Apple documents it themselves: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ > I for one had to buy a new iPhone cable for the first time in half a decade to connect my phone to my car. By its stated aims, the regulation was not effective in my case. Cope.

shuckles 3y ago
You do realize, if anything, the DMA itself is cope. The EU's consumer electronics industry has been lapped by the rest of the world, and now all they can do is nitpick connectors and firmly demand that Apple support something almost no users care about.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  How do you explain Japan also mandating this? As I recall, South Korea, India, Australia, and several other nations have also been calling for Apple to open up iOS as well.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > the DMA itself is cope It's a democratically passed bill to protect a market from extensive damage. Here are the people who voted for it: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/242706/IMCO%20Voting%20Session%2022-23%20November%202021%20(final%20votes).html.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/242706/IMCO%20Voting%... Again, if Apple shared your opinion then maybe they'd call Europe's bluff. Again, Apple is chronically incapable of doing this because it would mean being eaten alive by shareholders that make $DIS owners look rational. Leaving the European market would be the trigger-pull of Apple's suicide. > and now all they can do is nitpick connectors ...you're still mad about a $4 gas station cable? Seriously? > and firmly demand that Apple support something almost no users care about. "Why is the United States wasting their time with these Rockefeller people? They're coping over things the unbridled success of Standard Oil, pushing legislation that none of their customers care about!" - imagine the free market with a bunch of yous at the helm.