4 ms·

what product or service has lasted indefinitely? Google will compensate those who adopted it, life goes on.

guax 3y ago
I understand nothing lasts forever. Google seems to think almost nothing should last more than 10 years. Google Reader. Never forget.
jasonjayr 3y ago
I can still run DOS 6.22 right now. Probably even older software. In fact, just about most 'owned' software that does not depend on the cloud can be run for ever. Especially software that was sold as a perpetual license.
- briffle 3y ago
  You can run DOS 6.22 on brand new hardware, with an EFI bios? Or on a pc you pulled from a closet or a VM?
  - jasonjayr 3y ago
    You can run DOS 6.22 on an emulator. On modern hardware. (Even the latest Mac + their custom processor.) It doesn't have to be the boot Operating System. But it still runs, and can be used usefully if I've built something on top of it. The point is, 'the cloud' for services + software tied to physical hardware is proving over and over to be a dead end, and effectively a mechanism to create ewaste. Google could publish a docker image of the server software, and update the Jamboard firmware to provide a facility to connect to it. (DNS-SD, DHCP Options, Manual entry, whatever). And then Google has zero ongoing costs, and people who have bought into this ecosystem now have hardware they can continue to use, and we make far less e-waste.
    - admax88qqq 3y ago
      > But it still runs, and can be used usefully if I've built something on top of it. That's because somebody else put in the effort to emulate the pieces requires for DOS. The vendor you bought DOS from is not building your VM software so that you can continue to use DOS.
      - jasonjayr 3y ago
        Yes? So? The stack from boot-to-emulator can be 100% owned + managed by an organization or individual (and in fact, can be 100% OSS, except for whatever binary blobs are needed). Doesn't have to be crafted from bespoke bytes + bits to count. The important piece is that once this is running, there no one else that can prevent it from operating, except the organization or individual managing it (and perhaps dubious legal powers). Replacement hardware can be obtained. Backups can be made. Redundant power can be managed. The software can be re-installed. And if the unaffiliated OSS developers no longer want to maintain the software, the organization or individual can independently decide, if it is worth it to update the OSS themselves if no hardware or environment can run that. We don't have to get rid of old working hardware. We should prioritize not being wasteful. And we should prioritize empowering hardware owners to decide for themselves how to maintain & manage their hardware, even if they want to go it alone.
        hot_gril 3y ago
        Say someone provides unofficial Jamboard support, with no cloud. What would that look like, and how many people are going to actually use that vs just changing to a new thing?
        jasonjayr 3y ago
        Organization keeps a server on-prem that saves + shared boards, and enables collaboration with other people on-prem. Data from the boards are owned by the organization, and can be used as long as they need to.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Jamboard inherently required the cloud, so I'm not sure what your point is.
  - governmentdude 3y ago
    But google isn't retiring their cloud. They're just kicking the jamboards off it. The jamboards are computers capable of doing local compute. There's no hardware limitation preventing them from being a lot more useful. What we need is longer minimum warranties for electronics, with support and security fixes for 10+ years.
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      yes, which is why they will still work as offline whiteboards that can still be physically plugged into a computer and serve as a display.
maxsilver 3y ago
Microsoft Windows still exists, and can open executable compiled for it 25+ years ago. Microsoft Office still exists, and can still open Word / Excel / etc files from 25+ years ago. Adobe Photoshop still exists, and can open PSD files created 25+ years ago. Microsoft Xbox One X still exists, and is backwards compatible with titles from the OG Xbox release, as far back as 22 years ago - https://www.xbox.com/en-us/games/backward-compatibility?cat=xboxOG https://www.xbox.com/en-us/games/backward-compatibility?cat=... Microsoft Zune (launched 2006) is still supporting and fixing compatibility issues, all the way up through Windows 11 now 17 years post-launch - https://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-just-fixed-a-zune-compatibility-issue-in-the-year-2023/ https://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-just-fixed-a-zune-compatib... Warframe (Canadian MMO-lite third-person action video game) still supports every purchased piece of digital content ever sold, on all platforms, from the very first purchase, over the past 10 years. (I believe the same is true for Final Fantasy 14 which launched in the same year, but I'm less familiar with that one) Vanilla accounts from World of Warcraft (now 19ish years old) still work and function today. --- I don't think anyone expects things to last forever. I think they're just expecting things to last longer than "a few years", and there's no technical reason why we couldn't ensure that.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  None of these are managed solutions tied to hardware, so the comparisons are irrelevant. What hardware that [inherently] requires a managed service still exists after 10 years? Jamboard inherently required the cloud for "jams". Google will allow for migration to other services that do the same thing and will compensate for the hardware. Zune is dead as well as the store and your other comparisons are disingenuous at best. Furthermore, you will still be able to use the Jamboard as a whiteboard and connect it to your computer. It will not stop working. These comparisons are just terrible.
  - foobiekr 3y ago
    Managed solution _makes it easier_ not harder.
    - 3y ago
hot_gril 3y ago
The only one I can think of is Ring. Bravo to them. Most cloud-supported hardware is pretty fragile, but services in general can last much longer. Google's excessive churn with chat/social services is probably what earned their bad reputation. They also screwed up Nest. 8 years is a lot for them.
dosinga 3y ago
Sonos does a pretty good job still supporting there old hardware. The ZP100 came out 20 years ago and works pretty well today
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Is the zp100 cloud connected though? I thought the early sonos stuff was entirely on your own network

guax 3y ago

I understand nothing lasts forever. Google seems to think almost nothing should last more than 10 years. Google Reader. Never forget.

jasonjayr 3y ago

I can still run DOS 6.22 right now. Probably even older software. In fact, just about most 'owned' software that does not depend on the cloud can be run for ever. Especially software that was sold as a perpetual license.

briffle 3y ago
You can run DOS 6.22 on brand new hardware, with an EFI bios? Or on a pc you pulled from a closet or a VM?
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  You can run DOS 6.22 on an emulator. On modern hardware. (Even the latest Mac + their custom processor.) It doesn't have to be the boot Operating System. But it still runs, and can be used usefully if I've built something on top of it. The point is, 'the cloud' for services + software tied to physical hardware is proving over and over to be a dead end, and effectively a mechanism to create ewaste. Google could publish a docker image of the server software, and update the Jamboard firmware to provide a facility to connect to it. (DNS-SD, DHCP Options, Manual entry, whatever). And then Google has zero ongoing costs, and people who have bought into this ecosystem now have hardware they can continue to use, and we make far less e-waste.
  - admax88qqq 3y ago
    > But it still runs, and can be used usefully if I've built something on top of it. That's because somebody else put in the effort to emulate the pieces requires for DOS. The vendor you bought DOS from is not building your VM software so that you can continue to use DOS.
    - jasonjayr 3y ago
      Yes? So? The stack from boot-to-emulator can be 100% owned + managed by an organization or individual (and in fact, can be 100% OSS, except for whatever binary blobs are needed). Doesn't have to be crafted from bespoke bytes + bits to count. The important piece is that once this is running, there no one else that can prevent it from operating, except the organization or individual managing it (and perhaps dubious legal powers). Replacement hardware can be obtained. Backups can be made. Redundant power can be managed. The software can be re-installed. And if the unaffiliated OSS developers no longer want to maintain the software, the organization or individual can independently decide, if it is worth it to update the OSS themselves if no hardware or environment can run that. We don't have to get rid of old working hardware. We should prioritize not being wasteful. And we should prioritize empowering hardware owners to decide for themselves how to maintain & manage their hardware, even if they want to go it alone.
      - hot_gril 3y ago
        Say someone provides unofficial Jamboard support, with no cloud. What would that look like, and how many people are going to actually use that vs just changing to a new thing?
        jasonjayr 3y ago
        Organization keeps a server on-prem that saves + shared boards, and enables collaboration with other people on-prem. Data from the boards are owned by the organization, and can be used as long as they need to.
endisneigh 3y ago
Jamboard inherently required the cloud, so I'm not sure what your point is.
- governmentdude 3y ago
  But google isn't retiring their cloud. They're just kicking the jamboards off it. The jamboards are computers capable of doing local compute. There's no hardware limitation preventing them from being a lot more useful. What we need is longer minimum warranties for electronics, with support and security fixes for 10+ years.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    yes, which is why they will still work as offline whiteboards that can still be physically plugged into a computer and serve as a display.

maxsilver 3y ago

Microsoft Windows still exists, and can open executable compiled for it 25+ years ago. Microsoft Office still exists, and can still open Word / Excel / etc files from 25+ years ago. Adobe Photoshop still exists, and can open PSD files created 25+ years ago. Microsoft Xbox One X still exists, and is backwards compatible with titles from the OG Xbox release, as far back as 22 years ago - https://www.xbox.com/en-us/games/backward-compatibility?cat=xboxOG https://www.xbox.com/en-us/games/backward-compatibility?cat=... Microsoft Zune (launched 2006) is still supporting and fixing compatibility issues, all the way up through Windows 11 now 17 years post-launch - https://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-just-fixed-a-zune-compatibility-issue-in-the-year-2023/ https://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-just-fixed-a-zune-compatib... Warframe (Canadian MMO-lite third-person action video game) still supports every purchased piece of digital content ever sold, on all platforms, from the very first purchase, over the past 10 years. (I believe the same is true for Final Fantasy 14 which launched in the same year, but I'm less familiar with that one) Vanilla accounts from World of Warcraft (now 19ish years old) still work and function today. --- I don't think anyone expects things to last forever. I think they're just expecting things to last longer than "a few years", and there's no technical reason why we couldn't ensure that.

endisneigh 3y ago
None of these are managed solutions tied to hardware, so the comparisons are irrelevant. What hardware that [inherently] requires a managed service still exists after 10 years? Jamboard inherently required the cloud for "jams". Google will allow for migration to other services that do the same thing and will compensate for the hardware. Zune is dead as well as the store and your other comparisons are disingenuous at best. Furthermore, you will still be able to use the Jamboard as a whiteboard and connect it to your computer. It will not stop working. These comparisons are just terrible.
- foobiekr 3y ago
  Managed solution _makes it easier_ not harder.
  - 3y ago

hot_gril 3y ago

The only one I can think of is Ring. Bravo to them. Most cloud-supported hardware is pretty fragile, but services in general can last much longer. Google's excessive churn with chat/social services is probably what earned their bad reputation. They also screwed up Nest. 8 years is a lot for them.

dosinga 3y ago

Sonos does a pretty good job still supporting there old hardware. The ZP100 came out 20 years ago and works pretty well today

endisneigh 3y ago
Is the zp100 cloud connected though? I thought the early sonos stuff was entirely on your own network