6 ms·

What you can do as a consumer is.. not buy new iPhones? I don't mean as like a protest or anything. I mean just don't buy your iPhones new. They don't change

What you can do as a consumer is.. not buy new iPhones? I don't mean as like a protest or anything. I mean just don't buy your iPhones new. They don't change much anymore, you can get caught out by this or Antennagate (or any other type of issue you get to encounter as a first mover), and the changes between years are genuinely minimal now. The iPhone came out in 2007. The iPhone 4 came out in 2010. The leap from the original iPhone to the 4 was absolutely worth buying a new device over IMHO. A lot changed in those 3 years. Not much of anything has changed in the last 6. Not really. It's still basically the iPhone X with a couple of screen size options. Yeah the chips are faster on paper, and the photos have gone from really good to better, but it's a really incremental product these days (the notch has a notch now). A used iPhone 13 Pro Max in great condition is about $450 these days where I am. A new 15 Pro Max is about $1200. I get that they're not the same device, but is it really 2.1x the device that the 13 is? Am I the only person that thinks about it this way? I get that I'm no fun at parties, you don't need to tell me. I'd probably tell you to be honest, were I invited, which I rarely am.

atestu 3y ago
You're right, of course. I try to think about it like a car. I would never buy a new car, and a 5 year old luxury car is cheaper and better than a brand new non-luxury car. But the new ones are definitely shinier...
- uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
  Plus the 5 year old car model has an established history of reported problems. A used buyer can review to make a decision based on actual reliability, vs whats essentially an unknown when new. Particularly with new model generations.
smolyeet 3y ago
Idk what this has to do with the issue though. I mean sure wait on launch for bugs, but how often you upgrade a phone is irrelevant. In the last 6 you get 5g, 120hz, usb c, more ram.
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
people who spend $1200 every 12 months on buying the same phone, are not buying a phone.
- c-hendricks 3y ago
  And people who bought an iphone 15 are not people who buy a phone every 12 months.
concinds 3y ago
There's one way to stop it: online culture must shift toward blaming early adopters for not waiting, instead of blaming companies for bad QA. TotalBiscuit pushed that for game preorders, and it worked, preorders declined. Change always starts from below, and idle BigCorp criticism has no effect if people still give their money blindly.
- uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
  They are the same thing? If a majority refuses to buy new products due to bad QA it does effectively blame the company for bad QA
  - concinds 3y ago
    The point is many are blaming [BigCorp] while still consistently being early-adopters of their products.
- saurik 3y ago
  I mean... I absolutely do think early adopters of stuff are ridiculous and that the only reason I hop into bleeding edge tech is if I need or want to target it as a developer; and yet, I also think that a lot of these issues are ridiculous and in many cases (not sure about this current one, to be clear; but I haven't heard the cause yet) predictable (to the people who came up with / added it, not necessarily those of us in the peanut gallery that don't even know what really changed) to the point where it sometimes feels like the companies aren't doing sufficient QA at the conceptual level before pushing their product, as if what matters more is hitting some release deadline than making users happy. I guess: I blame the premise that Apple is a publicly traded company and I blame the people who work for it for going along with the incentives it has to simultaneously market the hell out of their new devices right out of the gate while simultaneously not really thinking through the ramifications of their designs in a way commiserate to the idea that they themselves are the reason so many people insist on ravenously buying into this stuff immediately. Like, it just doesn't, to me, feel like a cultural problem: it feels like a problem with the kind of arrogant marketing and simultaneously arrogant technical stance that the overall arrogant company that is Apple likes to take with their entire public image.
gonzo41 3y ago
If you've got the cash buy the Merc, etc etc Iphone. Otherwise, spend $300 on a really solid android phone and then flex on being money smart.
- uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
  Review the EOL spans between apple and android though. Apple is still releasing security updates for the 5S, a 10 year old handset. Android devices average 3-4 years before complete end of support. Maybe HN folks will go for alternate firmware, but I'm talking about manufacturer firmware for apples to apples comparison. That $300 increases to $600+ vs holding on to a ~$500 apple handset when looking at a 5+ years timeframe.
  - gonzo41 3y ago
    5 years on an iphone is a long time. There'll be a few screen replacements in that story.
    - uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
      Screen replacement is what $60 bucks, done in 15 minutes while you wait? Same goes for battery.
    - tristor 3y ago
      I've never had to replace the screen on any smartphone I've owned, of any brand, including Apple (which I've been on since the iPhone 4S), and I started with smartphones with Palm and Windows CE. I also drop my phones all the time. The secret? Buy a good case. It's really that simple.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Not at all. Screens only break if you drop your phone in a very unfortunate way.
    - xsmasher 3y ago
      At 5 years the battery is probably kaput, but you can get a new battery for $89 installed. I just put a new battery in my iPhone 11 and it has a new lease on life. Still a great phone.
thowaway91234 3y ago
I'm with you. Still on my iPhone 11 (first iPhone I ever bought after years of running my previous Samsung phone into the ground) and zero inclination to upgrade. My wife has the same phone and will iPhone talk about her mom's new Samsung phone takes nicer pictures but like...that's it? Pictures look slightly better - to be fair she's an amateur photographer so she sees things that are far less consquential to me so I see where she's coming from - but not brand-new-$1200 device better.
AnonHP 3y ago
> Not much of anything has changed in the last 6. Not really. It's still basically the iPhone X with a couple of screen size options. Yeah the chips are faster on paper, and the photos have gone from really good to better, but it's a really incremental product these days These kind of comments seem to be low effort because they don't really show an insight into what has changed. Of course, if you compare an iPhone from one year to the previous year, it may seem minor. But claiming confidently that not much has changed in six years is hyperbole. The improvements in camera, screen brightness, colors and many others strongly disagree with such claims. > A used iPhone 13 Pro Max in great condition is about $450 these days where I a.m. Of course, this could be a great alternative to buying a new phone since it's only two generations behind and is also a Pro model. It will do well for some more years (software wise) and probably need a battery replacement around that same time (depending on how it's been used till now).
- pmarreck 3y ago
  > The improvements in camera, screen brightness, colors and many others strongly disagree with such claims. I've owned an X, a 12, a 13 (after the 12 got water damage), and have ordered the 15 (but not received it yet). With the caveat of not having used the 14 or 15 (but just looking at the specs on paper), I would have to agree with the comment you're responding to that all the changes since the X have essentially been incremental. Not only that, completely and consistently annoying UI bugs such as the one where you accidentally tap a notification when you intended to tap a UI element at the top of the screen (which I blogged about way back when: https://medium.com/p/31773fe6bbd5 https://medium.com/p/31773fe6bbd5) have not been fixed despite the fact that my solution (adding a small input "debounce" or timeout whenever the UI changes, where inputs are ignored) would likely solve this problem. (This problem has likely annoyed YOU, even if you haven't heard about it until now! More generally, it's also a problem with websites that let you accidentally click or fat-finger on elements while they're still re-rendering and shuffling around, which my post also includes.) Of course, that's a software problem... The hardware is largely exactly the same. There's still no way to TouchID through the screen (like Android has had for years... I absolutely cannot stand FaceID and just use an alphanumeric code to unlock with a long unlock time now), there's still no models with a foldable screen (again, like Android has had for years), and we are only JUST getting USB-C (whoop de frickin' doo... again, not an Android fan but Android has had this for years too) and ONLY (more or less) because the EU twisted Apple's arm. (Aside: I still can't directly edit the custom spelling dictionary iOS maintains internally. Mine has a ton of garbage in it, but is just useful enough that I don't want to wipe it completely, which is the only option.) And now with iPhones dominating the teen market with like an 88% marketshare (which is a fairly good indicator that Apple will be completely entrenched for years from now), they just don't have any incentive to take innovation risks anymore.
lnxg33k1 3y ago
>> What you can do as a consumer is.. not buy new iPhones? How else am I supposed to show the shallowness of my existence
acadiasprings 3y ago
This is what I've been wanting to do, but I've found the used iPhone prices to be frustratingly high. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places, but I can't even find a base iPhone 13 for less than ~$550. Does it really make sense to buy a 2 year old model for 30% less than the brand new version? Sure, there haven't been many meaningful improvements in the past two years, but its still two fewer years of software support.
- jbc1 3y ago
  The premium apple products get on the second hand market is consistent so you can factor your own sale of the device further down the line in to your decision making.
elesiuta 3y ago
> I get that they're not the same device, but is it really 2.1x the device that the 13 is? It looks like you're using an average lifetime of 9 years for the 2.1x factor. I rarely see phones past 6 though and that's approximately how long they receive updates for. I've also never seen a used iPhone that cheap where I am. Here a new 15 max is $1450 and a used 13 max is $1000. Using a 6 year life: $1000 / (6-2) = $250 $1450 / 6 = $242 So if you use a phone to the 6 year point, you are paying less for a better device, and without any unknown damage or wear. Migrating less often to a new device is also a small time saver. Even if you go to 9 years, the new iPhone is only 1.13x more.
gdn00 3y ago
Ofcourse you are right. Its a veblen good. Read up Conspicuos Consumption. The plebs cant buy super yatches or formula 1 teams to signal Status (ie check me out, I have resourced to squander, so who do you want to hang out? with me or someone who doesnt have resources to squander?) So they buy shit like iphones. Its within the credit card limits of the plebs with status cravings. Veblen would say status signalling is a massive misallocation of the econimies resources, and a good technologist is one reduces economic waste. I mean get people as crazy about poor infra outside their homes or in their hospitals and schools instead this type of stuff.
dubya 3y ago
You could just return the phone if it's overheating. It's only been out a week or so.
kaba0 3y ago
It’s almost like the vast vast majority of people don’t buy a new phone every year - but these small incremental updates do add up over the years, and going from an X to 15 is a big change. According to statistics, people change phones every 3 years only. You are arguing against a strawmen.
thebruce87m 3y ago
You seem to think everyone updating to a 15 already had a 14 or other recent model? I don’t think that is a sound assumption. I’m on an 11 and my wife has an 8. I’ll probably get a 15 next year, 1 year old second hand as I normally do.
jbc1 3y ago
> but is it really 2.1x the device that the 13 is? Am I the only person that thinks about it this way? You're not the only person that thinks about things this way, but all of you should probably stop thinking this way. Unless you'd like to dual wield 2.1 used iPhone Pro Maxes, have exactly $1200, can never get more money, and can never spend it on anything else; the percentage of price one option is of the price of the other option is irrelevant. What matters is what you would be giving up by spending the extra $750.
tim333 3y ago
But what about the cool factor and showing off to your mates!? That said I'm on a 2016 SE which is fine really.
Havoc 3y ago
There was a sizable leap on cameras between the 13 pro max and 14 pro max. 12MP to 48MP.
TheHappyOddish 3y ago
A 2.1x modifier isn't fair though, because life cycle is also reduced by 1/3. Also, if I have a 15 Pro Max and it overheata, I'll simply go and have it replaced under sane consumer laws.
nikanj 3y ago
Antennagate was 100% bogus, they changed nothing in the phone's design and the complaints died down. The same thing with the bendgate, that one had people going to Apple stores to bend display iPhones

atestu 3y ago

You're right, of course. I try to think about it like a car. I would never buy a new car, and a 5 year old luxury car is cheaper and better than a brand new non-luxury car. But the new ones are definitely shinier...

uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
Plus the 5 year old car model has an established history of reported problems. A used buyer can review to make a decision based on actual reliability, vs whats essentially an unknown when new. Particularly with new model generations.

smolyeet 3y ago

Idk what this has to do with the issue though. I mean sure wait on launch for bugs, but how often you upgrade a phone is irrelevant. In the last 6 you get 5g, 120hz, usb c, more ram.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

people who spend $1200 every 12 months on buying the same phone, are not buying a phone.

c-hendricks 3y ago
And people who bought an iphone 15 are not people who buy a phone every 12 months.

concinds 3y ago

There's one way to stop it: online culture must shift toward blaming early adopters for not waiting, instead of blaming companies for bad QA. TotalBiscuit pushed that for game preorders, and it worked, preorders declined. Change always starts from below, and idle BigCorp criticism has no effect if people still give their money blindly.

uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
They are the same thing? If a majority refuses to buy new products due to bad QA it does effectively blame the company for bad QA
- concinds 3y ago
  The point is many are blaming [BigCorp] while still consistently being early-adopters of their products.
saurik 3y ago
I mean... I absolutely do think early adopters of stuff are ridiculous and that the only reason I hop into bleeding edge tech is if I need or want to target it as a developer; and yet, I also think that a lot of these issues are ridiculous and in many cases (not sure about this current one, to be clear; but I haven't heard the cause yet) predictable (to the people who came up with / added it, not necessarily those of us in the peanut gallery that don't even know what really changed) to the point where it sometimes feels like the companies aren't doing sufficient QA at the conceptual level before pushing their product, as if what matters more is hitting some release deadline than making users happy. I guess: I blame the premise that Apple is a publicly traded company and I blame the people who work for it for going along with the incentives it has to simultaneously market the hell out of their new devices right out of the gate while simultaneously not really thinking through the ramifications of their designs in a way commiserate to the idea that they themselves are the reason so many people insist on ravenously buying into this stuff immediately. Like, it just doesn't, to me, feel like a cultural problem: it feels like a problem with the kind of arrogant marketing and simultaneously arrogant technical stance that the overall arrogant company that is Apple likes to take with their entire public image.

gonzo41 3y ago

If you've got the cash buy the Merc, etc etc Iphone. Otherwise, spend $300 on a really solid android phone and then flex on being money smart.

uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
Review the EOL spans between apple and android though. Apple is still releasing security updates for the 5S, a 10 year old handset. Android devices average 3-4 years before complete end of support. Maybe HN folks will go for alternate firmware, but I'm talking about manufacturer firmware for apples to apples comparison. That $300 increases to $600+ vs holding on to a ~$500 apple handset when looking at a 5+ years timeframe.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  5 years on an iphone is a long time. There'll be a few screen replacements in that story.
  - uuddlrlrbaba 3y ago
    Screen replacement is what $60 bucks, done in 15 minutes while you wait? Same goes for battery.
  - tristor 3y ago
    I've never had to replace the screen on any smartphone I've owned, of any brand, including Apple (which I've been on since the iPhone 4S), and I started with smartphones with Palm and Windows CE. I also drop my phones all the time. The secret? Buy a good case. It's really that simple.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Not at all. Screens only break if you drop your phone in a very unfortunate way.
  - xsmasher 3y ago
    At 5 years the battery is probably kaput, but you can get a new battery for $89 installed. I just put a new battery in my iPhone 11 and it has a new lease on life. Still a great phone.

thowaway91234 3y ago

I'm with you. Still on my iPhone 11 (first iPhone I ever bought after years of running my previous Samsung phone into the ground) and zero inclination to upgrade. My wife has the same phone and will iPhone talk about her mom's new Samsung phone takes nicer pictures but like...that's it? Pictures look slightly better - to be fair she's an amateur photographer so she sees things that are far less consquential to me so I see where she's coming from - but not brand-new-$1200 device better.

AnonHP 3y ago

> Not much of anything has changed in the last 6. Not really. It's still basically the iPhone X with a couple of screen size options. Yeah the chips are faster on paper, and the photos have gone from really good to better, but it's a really incremental product these days These kind of comments seem to be low effort because they don't really show an insight into what has changed. Of course, if you compare an iPhone from one year to the previous year, it may seem minor. But claiming confidently that not much has changed in six years is hyperbole. The improvements in camera, screen brightness, colors and many others strongly disagree with such claims. > A used iPhone 13 Pro Max in great condition is about $450 these days where I a.m. Of course, this could be a great alternative to buying a new phone since it's only two generations behind and is also a Pro model. It will do well for some more years (software wise) and probably need a battery replacement around that same time (depending on how it's been used till now).

pmarreck 3y ago
> The improvements in camera, screen brightness, colors and many others strongly disagree with such claims. I've owned an X, a 12, a 13 (after the 12 got water damage), and have ordered the 15 (but not received it yet). With the caveat of not having used the 14 or 15 (but just looking at the specs on paper), I would have to agree with the comment you're responding to that all the changes since the X have essentially been incremental. Not only that, completely and consistently annoying UI bugs such as the one where you accidentally tap a notification when you intended to tap a UI element at the top of the screen (which I blogged about way back when: https://medium.com/p/31773fe6bbd5 https://medium.com/p/31773fe6bbd5) have not been fixed despite the fact that my solution (adding a small input "debounce" or timeout whenever the UI changes, where inputs are ignored) would likely solve this problem. (This problem has likely annoyed YOU, even if you haven't heard about it until now! More generally, it's also a problem with websites that let you accidentally click or fat-finger on elements while they're still re-rendering and shuffling around, which my post also includes.) Of course, that's a software problem... The hardware is largely exactly the same. There's still no way to TouchID through the screen (like Android has had for years... I absolutely cannot stand FaceID and just use an alphanumeric code to unlock with a long unlock time now), there's still no models with a foldable screen (again, like Android has had for years), and we are only JUST getting USB-C (whoop de frickin' doo... again, not an Android fan but Android has had this for years too) and ONLY (more or less) because the EU twisted Apple's arm. (Aside: I still can't directly edit the custom spelling dictionary iOS maintains internally. Mine has a ton of garbage in it, but is just useful enough that I don't want to wipe it completely, which is the only option.) And now with iPhones dominating the teen market with like an 88% marketshare (which is a fairly good indicator that Apple will be completely entrenched for years from now), they just don't have any incentive to take innovation risks anymore.

lnxg33k1 3y ago

>> What you can do as a consumer is.. not buy new iPhones? How else am I supposed to show the shallowness of my existence

acadiasprings 3y ago

This is what I've been wanting to do, but I've found the used iPhone prices to be frustratingly high. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places, but I can't even find a base iPhone 13 for less than ~$550. Does it really make sense to buy a 2 year old model for 30% less than the brand new version? Sure, there haven't been many meaningful improvements in the past two years, but its still two fewer years of software support.

jbc1 3y ago
The premium apple products get on the second hand market is consistent so you can factor your own sale of the device further down the line in to your decision making.

elesiuta 3y ago

> I get that they're not the same device, but is it really 2.1x the device that the 13 is? It looks like you're using an average lifetime of 9 years for the 2.1x factor. I rarely see phones past 6 though and that's approximately how long they receive updates for. I've also never seen a used iPhone that cheap where I am. Here a new 15 max is $1450 and a used 13 max is $1000. Using a 6 year life: $1000 / (6-2) = $250 $1450 / 6 = $242 So if you use a phone to the 6 year point, you are paying less for a better device, and without any unknown damage or wear. Migrating less often to a new device is also a small time saver. Even if you go to 9 years, the new iPhone is only 1.13x more.

gdn00 3y ago

Ofcourse you are right. Its a veblen good. Read up Conspicuos Consumption. The plebs cant buy super yatches or formula 1 teams to signal Status (ie check me out, I have resourced to squander, so who do you want to hang out? with me or someone who doesnt have resources to squander?) So they buy shit like iphones. Its within the credit card limits of the plebs with status cravings. Veblen would say status signalling is a massive misallocation of the econimies resources, and a good technologist is one reduces economic waste. I mean get people as crazy about poor infra outside their homes or in their hospitals and schools instead this type of stuff.

dubya 3y ago

You could just return the phone if it's overheating. It's only been out a week or so.

kaba0 3y ago

It’s almost like the vast vast majority of people don’t buy a new phone every year - but these small incremental updates do add up over the years, and going from an X to 15 is a big change. According to statistics, people change phones every 3 years only. You are arguing against a strawmen.

thebruce87m 3y ago

You seem to think everyone updating to a 15 already had a 14 or other recent model? I don’t think that is a sound assumption. I’m on an 11 and my wife has an 8. I’ll probably get a 15 next year, 1 year old second hand as I normally do.

jbc1 3y ago

> but is it really 2.1x the device that the 13 is? Am I the only person that thinks about it this way? You're not the only person that thinks about things this way, but all of you should probably stop thinking this way. Unless you'd like to dual wield 2.1 used iPhone Pro Maxes, have exactly $1200, can never get more money, and can never spend it on anything else; the percentage of price one option is of the price of the other option is irrelevant. What matters is what you would be giving up by spending the extra $750.

tim333 3y ago

But what about the cool factor and showing off to your mates!? That said I'm on a 2016 SE which is fine really.

Havoc 3y ago

There was a sizable leap on cameras between the 13 pro max and 14 pro max. 12MP to 48MP.

TheHappyOddish 3y ago

A 2.1x modifier isn't fair though, because life cycle is also reduced by 1/3. Also, if I have a 15 Pro Max and it overheata, I'll simply go and have it replaced under sane consumer laws.

nikanj 3y ago

Antennagate was 100% bogus, they changed nothing in the phone's design and the complaints died down. The same thing with the bendgate, that one had people going to Apple stores to bend display iPhones