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Relevant this week: - GPS costs around $2B/yr to continue operating - Most of this comes from the defense budget - This year, because of shenanigans, the NDA

by abeppu 3y ago

Relevant this week: - GPS costs around $2B/yr to continue operating - Most of this comes from the defense budget - This year, because of shenanigans, the NDAA has _not_ yet been passed b/c there are significant and controversial amendments in the House version - We're careening towards a government shutdown I'm not saying this _will_ happen, or _should_ happen ... but if GPS went off with the rest of the government, would Congress reach a resolution faster? https://www.gps.gov/policy/funding/ https://www.gps.gov/policy/funding/

1-6 3y ago
[flagged]
- abeppu 3y ago
  No, by shenanigans, I mean the NDAA amendments that put in stuff about abortion and transgender policies in an effort to make even basic continued national security part of the culture wars. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/14/house-passes-defense-bill-despite-controversial-abortion-transgender-policies-00106373 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/14/house-passes-defens...
  - salad-tycoon 3y ago
    In case anyone wonders what 1-6’s comment is reflecting I believe it’s the idea that convenient big news items come about whenever something unflattering comes out about Biden or fam or some other “protected” government Or corporate figure. Maybe or maybe not but at least all this alien nonsense has died down.
orangepurple 3y ago
EU Galileo, RU GLONASS, and CN BeiDou constellations all continue to operate but GPS receivers are not allowed to receive their broadcasts within the United States for political reasons only.
- khuey 3y ago
  It's been legal to use Galileo signals in the US for several years now. https://www.gps.gov/spectrum/foreign/ https://www.gps.gov/spectrum/foreign/
  - joecool1029 3y ago
    I never could find where the US authorization was for GLONASS signals. I imagine it was included in some kind of bilateral treaty between US and Russia. The program to authorize later constellations (which Galileo went through) was not in place yet. It's like everything they issued since then ignores that we were using those signals since the 2000's.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mukara 3y ago
  Signals from Galileo, GLONASS, and BeiDou (and other semi-regional navigation satellite constellations) can be received in the US. Any decent GNSS receiver you can purchase in the US will be able to receive all 4 major global constellations. I know this cause I work with them everyday. Even the typical “premium” cellphone will receive all 4. (I know some Android manufacturers disable the used of BeiDou, but they can still receive it.) The iPhone 15 Pro’s tech specs mention “Precision dual-frequency GPS (GPS, GLONASS, Galileo, QZSS, BeiDou, and NavIC)”.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Plus, some receivers can work with signals coming from different cobstellations, e.g. one GPs, one GLoNAS and one Galileo, in order to provide a proper position.
  - smachiz 3y ago
    I think technically they should only receive for Galileo in the US - unless any of the others have also received exceptions from the FCC. While in other countries, presumably your phone turns on the additional sources.
dfxm12 3y ago
The 2018 shutdown did not appear to affect GPS. Is this looming shut down different in some way?
- khuey 3y ago
  No, it's not.
- abeppu 3y ago
  I don't actually expect GPS to be impacted in the coming week, but I think the big difference is that in the last partial shutdown, DoD funding had already been separately approved in September [2,3], and the shutdown started months later [1]. This cycle, b/c the NDAA has _not_ been passed, the DoD will be meaningfully impacted [4]: - service members will not be paid - some post and base services, commissaries and medical procedures may be stopped Note that legislation has been proposed but not adopted to make sure that military personnel are paid even during a government shutdown. Note also that key military promotions/confirmations have been blocked for months in the Senate. It really seems like Congress does is not currently taking the military and national security seriously. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_United_States_federal_government_shutdown#Agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_United_State... [2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5895 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5895 [3] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6157 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6157 [4] https://www.npr.org/2023/09/27/1201956915/government-shutdown-us-military-national-security https://www.npr.org/2023/09/27/1201956915/government-shutdow...
  - Jtsummers 3y ago
    > Note also that key military promotions/confirmations have been blocked for months in the Senate. One man in the Senate is responsible for this one. Non-essential civil service (a substantial part of DOD operations) will not be working come Monday (unless an agreement is reached by then) unless they are on multi-year funds. Program offices and large portions of logistics are largely staffed by civil service at this point so this could have huge impacts on military readiness.
ShakataGaNai 3y ago
> but if GPS went off with the rest of the government, would Congress reach a resolution faster? Oh hell yes. GPS is the basis of trillions of dollars of business globally. Just look at sea shipping and aviation alone. Would a lack of GPS ground every commercial plane? Maybe.. maybe not... but it certainly would be a huge disruption. The first time it happens everyone would just drive hard to making sure all "GPS" systems were actually multi-system GNSS systems. Which is already true of most consumer phones, but I imagine there are still plenty of GPS-Only stuff out there. After the first GPS shutdown and the time for retrofit, everyone would have support for Galileo etc... and the Europeans would be standing there going "SEE!!!! I told you we can't trust the Americans!". And they'd be right.
- hackernewds 3y ago
  it wouldn't just disrupt planes, it would crash planes if this were not even planned as a contingency. as a senior operations manager for a global logistics company, I was actually not even aware of this being a possibility until TIL here
  - rlpb 3y ago
    > it wouldn't just disrupt planes, it would crash planes if this were not even planned as a contingency. It would not. Aircraft have other navigation systems they can use instead, such as inertial reference and ground-based VOR navigation. And where there's radar coverage, they can be vectored by controllers. This probably couldn't be used to keep up with the volume of air traffic today, but it would be enough to get existing flights down safely. For landing, ILS is still very common, and doesn't require GPS either. An aircraft planning to land at an airport without ILS will have no trouble finding a nearby diversion airport that does have it. Even as more ground-based navigation beacons are decommissioned, retaining enough for such an emergency remains an active consideration.
  - thewataccount 3y ago
    To my knowledge planes don't use the gps for very much, and AFAIK they use the barometric altimeter for maintaining their flight level. A controllable, plane that can maintain altitude is difficult to crash. The GPS stuff is mostly supplemental and is relatively new. And pilots can land with a visual approach and still have ILS. You would still have ADSB with your altitude, and I beleive heading and airspeed. Because of the existing requirement to be spotting traffic and being over 1000ft away from other planes, they should be fine. ATC should still have radar vectoring for their airspace. I assume planes use more then just GPS, and use galileo and the other networks like consumer GPS do.
wkat4242 3y ago
GPS is far from the only GNSS now. This whole shutdown business justifies our EU decision to develop GALILEO despite the cost and the Americans not being too happy about it.

by abeppu 3y ago

1-6 3y ago

[flagged]

abeppu 3y ago
No, by shenanigans, I mean the NDAA amendments that put in stuff about abortion and transgender policies in an effort to make even basic continued national security part of the culture wars. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/14/house-passes-defense-bill-despite-controversial-abortion-transgender-policies-00106373 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/14/house-passes-defens...
- salad-tycoon 3y ago
  In case anyone wonders what 1-6’s comment is reflecting I believe it’s the idea that convenient big news items come about whenever something unflattering comes out about Biden or fam or some other “protected” government Or corporate figure. Maybe or maybe not but at least all this alien nonsense has died down.

orangepurple 3y ago

EU Galileo, RU GLONASS, and CN BeiDou constellations all continue to operate but GPS receivers are not allowed to receive their broadcasts within the United States for political reasons only.

khuey 3y ago
It's been legal to use Galileo signals in the US for several years now. https://www.gps.gov/spectrum/foreign/ https://www.gps.gov/spectrum/foreign/
- joecool1029 3y ago
  I never could find where the US authorization was for GLONASS signals. I imagine it was included in some kind of bilateral treaty between US and Russia. The program to authorize later constellations (which Galileo went through) was not in place yet. It's like everything they issued since then ignores that we were using those signals since the 2000's.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mukara 3y ago
Signals from Galileo, GLONASS, and BeiDou (and other semi-regional navigation satellite constellations) can be received in the US. Any decent GNSS receiver you can purchase in the US will be able to receive all 4 major global constellations. I know this cause I work with them everyday. Even the typical “premium” cellphone will receive all 4. (I know some Android manufacturers disable the used of BeiDou, but they can still receive it.) The iPhone 15 Pro’s tech specs mention “Precision dual-frequency GPS (GPS, GLONASS, Galileo, QZSS, BeiDou, and NavIC)”.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Plus, some receivers can work with signals coming from different cobstellations, e.g. one GPs, one GLoNAS and one Galileo, in order to provide a proper position.
- smachiz 3y ago
  I think technically they should only receive for Galileo in the US - unless any of the others have also received exceptions from the FCC. While in other countries, presumably your phone turns on the additional sources.

dfxm12 3y ago

The 2018 shutdown did not appear to affect GPS. Is this looming shut down different in some way?

khuey 3y ago
No, it's not.
abeppu 3y ago
I don't actually expect GPS to be impacted in the coming week, but I think the big difference is that in the last partial shutdown, DoD funding had already been separately approved in September [2,3], and the shutdown started months later [1]. This cycle, b/c the NDAA has _not_ been passed, the DoD will be meaningfully impacted [4]: - service members will not be paid - some post and base services, commissaries and medical procedures may be stopped Note that legislation has been proposed but not adopted to make sure that military personnel are paid even during a government shutdown. Note also that key military promotions/confirmations have been blocked for months in the Senate. It really seems like Congress does is not currently taking the military and national security seriously. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_United_States_federal_government_shutdown#Agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_United_State... [2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5895 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5895 [3] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6157 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6157 [4] https://www.npr.org/2023/09/27/1201956915/government-shutdown-us-military-national-security https://www.npr.org/2023/09/27/1201956915/government-shutdow...
- Jtsummers 3y ago
  > Note also that key military promotions/confirmations have been blocked for months in the Senate. One man in the Senate is responsible for this one. Non-essential civil service (a substantial part of DOD operations) will not be working come Monday (unless an agreement is reached by then) unless they are on multi-year funds. Program offices and large portions of logistics are largely staffed by civil service at this point so this could have huge impacts on military readiness.

ShakataGaNai 3y ago

> but if GPS went off with the rest of the government, would Congress reach a resolution faster? Oh hell yes. GPS is the basis of trillions of dollars of business globally. Just look at sea shipping and aviation alone. Would a lack of GPS ground every commercial plane? Maybe.. maybe not... but it certainly would be a huge disruption. The first time it happens everyone would just drive hard to making sure all "GPS" systems were actually multi-system GNSS systems. Which is already true of most consumer phones, but I imagine there are still plenty of GPS-Only stuff out there. After the first GPS shutdown and the time for retrofit, everyone would have support for Galileo etc... and the Europeans would be standing there going "SEE!!!! I told you we can't trust the Americans!". And they'd be right.

hackernewds 3y ago
it wouldn't just disrupt planes, it would crash planes if this were not even planned as a contingency. as a senior operations manager for a global logistics company, I was actually not even aware of this being a possibility until TIL here
- rlpb 3y ago
  > it wouldn't just disrupt planes, it would crash planes if this were not even planned as a contingency. It would not. Aircraft have other navigation systems they can use instead, such as inertial reference and ground-based VOR navigation. And where there's radar coverage, they can be vectored by controllers. This probably couldn't be used to keep up with the volume of air traffic today, but it would be enough to get existing flights down safely. For landing, ILS is still very common, and doesn't require GPS either. An aircraft planning to land at an airport without ILS will have no trouble finding a nearby diversion airport that does have it. Even as more ground-based navigation beacons are decommissioned, retaining enough for such an emergency remains an active consideration.
- thewataccount 3y ago
  To my knowledge planes don't use the gps for very much, and AFAIK they use the barometric altimeter for maintaining their flight level. A controllable, plane that can maintain altitude is difficult to crash. The GPS stuff is mostly supplemental and is relatively new. And pilots can land with a visual approach and still have ILS. You would still have ADSB with your altitude, and I beleive heading and airspeed. Because of the existing requirement to be spotting traffic and being over 1000ft away from other planes, they should be fine. ATC should still have radar vectoring for their airspace. I assume planes use more then just GPS, and use galileo and the other networks like consumer GPS do.

wkat4242 3y ago

GPS is far from the only GNSS now. This whole shutdown business justifies our EU decision to develop GALILEO despite the cost and the Americans not being too happy about it.