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Ranked choice voting (the brand name for Instant Runoff or Hare voting) neither theoretically [0] nor empirically [1] has the outcomes for third parties that yo

by pxx 3y ago

Ranked choice voting (the brand name for Instant Runoff or Hare voting) neither theoretically [0] nor empirically [1] has the outcomes for third parties that you think it does. This combined with its other flaws makes it worse than plurality. Not only that, it doesn't allow for distributed counts [2], it can wreck the secret ballot [3], and it is not monotonic [4]. Arrow gives us an impossibility result for elections but monotonicity is the worst criterion to give up, especially when the system has so many other flaws. [0] https://rangevoting.org/TarrIrv.html https://rangevoting.org/TarrIrv.html [1] see examples cited in https://rangevoting.org/NoIrv.html https://rangevoting.org/NoIrv.html [2] sure, you can transmit the contents of all of the ballots, but then it's still a centralized count... [3] n! grows much much larger than population, so you can encode ballot ID [4] http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/ http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/

iambateman 3y ago
The real problem with RCV is that it doesn't intuitively make sense to an average person. I wrote a web app for RCV and spent months trying to build a user experience that would help people understand the concept and it just doesn't work. People come to the question of voting assuming it's easy to understand...We've never had to deal with complexity around the concept so we expect it to be simple. Introducing an algorithm plays into the fears of people who believe in a deep state which is secretly trying to manipulate people. We deeply need a better voting system, but one of the core requirements must be that one can explain it to a middle schooler in 30 seconds.
- matt-attack 3y ago
  How is it hard to explain: please put these names in a row from best to worst.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - taylodl 3y ago
    Citizens of other countries have figured it out. Which means, of course, Americans can't. And yes, I'm an American.
  - beej71 3y ago
    When I tested out of high school, one of the test questions gave you a list of planets and their diameters. The multiple choice question was: which of these answers lists the planets in order from smallest to largest diameter? This was for a high school diploma equivalent! I was stumped for a while wondering if I was understanding the question correctly. Anyway, I passed the test, but the fact this question was on there gave me serious doubts as to the general skill of the populace. I'm a fan of RCV over the current system, but I know it's going to trip a lot of people up.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    It's the way this leads to a specific outcome that's hard to explain.
- qsort 3y ago
  An additional problem is trust. With any RCV method, you win because math says so. In a normal election you count. It's basically 100% guaranteed that someone who won most first choices but lost the election will try to delegitimize the election with stupid populism. The first and most important job of an election is to ensure peaceful transfer of power. My favorite alternate system is approval voting. Vote any number of candidates rather than just one. Most votes wins. 5 seconds and no nerd required.
- xtiansimon 3y ago
  > “The real problem with RCV is that it doesn't intuitively make sense to an average person.” And yet it’s happening in NYC: _“The first Ranked Choice Voting election was on February 2nd, 2021 in a special election for NYC Council District 24 (Queens).”_ If you can make it in NYC, you can make it anywhere. https://www.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choice-voting.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choic...

by pxx 3y ago

iambateman 3y ago

The real problem with RCV is that it doesn't intuitively make sense to an average person. I wrote a web app for RCV and spent months trying to build a user experience that would help people understand the concept and it just doesn't work. People come to the question of voting assuming it's easy to understand...We've never had to deal with complexity around the concept so we expect it to be simple. Introducing an algorithm plays into the fears of people who believe in a deep state which is secretly trying to manipulate people. We deeply need a better voting system, but one of the core requirements must be that one can explain it to a middle schooler in 30 seconds.

matt-attack 3y ago
How is it hard to explain: please put these names in a row from best to worst.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- taylodl 3y ago
  Citizens of other countries have figured it out. Which means, of course, Americans can't. And yes, I'm an American.
- beej71 3y ago
  When I tested out of high school, one of the test questions gave you a list of planets and their diameters. The multiple choice question was: which of these answers lists the planets in order from smallest to largest diameter? This was for a high school diploma equivalent! I was stumped for a while wondering if I was understanding the question correctly. Anyway, I passed the test, but the fact this question was on there gave me serious doubts as to the general skill of the populace. I'm a fan of RCV over the current system, but I know it's going to trip a lot of people up.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  It's the way this leads to a specific outcome that's hard to explain.
qsort 3y ago
An additional problem is trust. With any RCV method, you win because math says so. In a normal election you count. It's basically 100% guaranteed that someone who won most first choices but lost the election will try to delegitimize the election with stupid populism. The first and most important job of an election is to ensure peaceful transfer of power. My favorite alternate system is approval voting. Vote any number of candidates rather than just one. Most votes wins. 5 seconds and no nerd required.
xtiansimon 3y ago
> “The real problem with RCV is that it doesn't intuitively make sense to an average person.” And yet it’s happening in NYC: _“The first Ranked Choice Voting election was on February 2nd, 2021 in a special election for NYC Council District 24 (Queens).”_ If you can make it in NYC, you can make it anywhere. https://www.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choice-voting.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choic...