7 ms·

Loadsharers: Funding the Load Bearing Internet People (2020)

102 points by felurx 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bitwize 3y ago
ESR: Opposes communism and all things left with McCarthy-esque fervor. Also ESR: Tries to reinvent Kropotkin's mutual aid from first principles.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Someone else taking your stuff and deciding what to do with it is different to you choosing to give some of your stuff away.
  - FireInsight 3y ago
    Classic "communism is when you share your toothbrush" except it's "anarchism is when people steal from you".
    - jancsika 3y ago
      Ooh, I've got one: Classic anarchism is when I share knowledge about how to make your own toothbrush. Communism is when I get stabbed in the back because I didn't help them take over the toothbrush factory.
      - TOGoS 3y ago
        As a commie who feels bad about Kronstadt, I got a chuckle out of this. That kind of back-stabbing has happened too often.
  - gremlinunderway 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      This doesn't seem appropriate for HN. If you calmly explain what you mean, as I did, then that would be great.
- BryantD 3y ago
  It’s funny but if esr actually read Kropotkin without bias I suspect he’d find a lot to agree with. I don’t know if he’d realize how much he’s been co-opted by what Kropotkin would call “the crushing powers of the centralized State.”
- dannyobrien 3y ago
  I mean, he does in fact identify as an anarchist, though from the individualist anarchist tradition: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/anarchist.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/anarchist.html
  - bitwize 3y ago
    He's a right-libertarian/ancap, which is not real anarchism. Real anarchism considers capitalism and private property as forms of control that must also be abolished.
cpach 3y ago
I know that ESR considers himself to be an “LBIP”. Not really convinced that the claim has merit…
- tptacek 3y ago
  It pretty clearly does not, and given his role in this program, his placement of himself in it makes the whole thing pretty dubious.
  - neilv 3y ago
    This would seem consistent with his pre-Web thinking. For example, IIRC, he tried to organize a contest on behalf of the Internet/Usenet, in which all the computer companies would compete to see who could assemble the best "dream" Unix workstation. IIRC, the unusual thing was that, for his part in facilitating this, he would receive one of the dream workstations personally. (Which, at the time, rubbed me the wrong way, because it seemed like other Internet/Usenet projects were done more volunteer-like. But in hindsight, or at least in today's cultural conventions, someone being upfront about wanting a consideration for their effort on a project seems perfectly reasonable. It just seemed unusual to me as a kid, in the hard separation at the time, between the techie non-commercial Internet altruistic utopia we could imagine at times we were creating, and whatever different world the stereotypical MBAs would like so that they could grab wealth and power disproportionately.) Regarding this new thing, ESR might not need the money today, though he might like to be more back in the center of things, and/or to have a positive impact. In early Web times, business wanted to pick up Linux, etc., and he became an "influencer" for open source -- maybe a figurehead, like "here's the counterculture perspective, and you can work with him; now go at it, business types" -- helping to adapt RMS's mission in a way acceptable to business. So he got a windfall when the Linux IPOs were happening: https://news.slashdot.org/story/99/12/10/0821224/esr-writes-on-surprised-by-wealth https://news.slashdot.org/story/99/12/10/0821224/esr-writes-...
    - elcritch 3y ago
      Given ESR was very wealthy by most any standards, it seems very disingenuous to list himself as an LBIP. His need “high”. Seriously did he waste his fortune in which case I don’t feel bad for him or want to support his wasteful ways. Alternatively he’s still well off and just greedy.
vitus 3y ago
Also note http://www.catb.org/esr/loadsharers/ http://www.catb.org/esr/loadsharers/ as ESR's initial list of proposed loadbearers; he additionally links to Dave Täht's loadsharer page: http://flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net/~d/lbip/ http://flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net/~d/lbip/
- varjag 3y ago
  One on that list is not like the others.
- dtaht 3y ago
  I should totally take that down. Nobody cared. I got, oh, perhaps 70 dollars a month more into my patreon via this idea... ... but I like to think, that the awareness of the problem itself has propagated all the way up to the highest levels of many governments.
silviot 3y ago
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/
Roark66 3y ago
I'm not sure about this. On one hand the idea sounds good on the other it raises lots of questions. For example, who will decide who is a "worthy load bearer"? Then once people are funded who will manage their workloads? Also, I'm dubious the whole thing is actually needed in the first place. No examples of "load bearers needing funding" were given. DNS was mentioned, but what part of it exactly? Root TLDs are doing pretty well financially from what I heard by selling all the sub domains in their TLDs, so what are we talking about exactly reverse DNS? Things like .org or edu? These are funded by governments. Network wise we have telcos paying for sub sea cables, Internet exchanges like the one in London are self funded (by connection fees). Routing is managed by same telcos and IXs. What are these individual "Internet Load Bearers" that keep the entire Internet afloat without making a dime from it? Usenet admins? I might have paid to keep Usenet alive, but Google bought it all, didn't they?
- pdonis 3y ago
  > who will decide who is a "worthy load bearer"? If you decide to contribute, you do. You contribute directly to people you think are worthy load bearers. > once people are funded who will manage their workloads? They do. They're already doing that anyway. If you decide to fund someone through this program, you're saying that you think whatever they are already doing is worth supporting. > What are these individual "Internet Load Bearers" that keep the entire Internet afloat without making a dime from it? The very start of the article explains this.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    It makes a series of claims, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it "explains" anything.
    - pdonis 3y ago
      It explains the theory under which the "load bearers" initiative operates. If you don't agree with that theory, then of course you're not going to buy their explanation. But for someone who does agree with their theory, the explanation given looks fine to me.
ak217 3y ago
FYI there is a company called Tidelift that funds essential infrastructure project maintainers using subscriptions by companies that depend on them and information about dependencies that the subscribers provide. In my experience, Tidelift has provided the most consistent and meaningful support to maintainers I know, and based on that experience I trust their model and judgment more than ESR's.
luplex 3y ago
There's also Germany's Sovereign Tech Fund, which was set up with a similar goal. It funds curl, for example. https://sovereigntechfund.de/en/ https://sovereigntechfund.de/en/
- dtaht 3y ago
  I just heard about that recently! I am encouraged! I hope they put some dough under OpenWrt. NLNET has also been a consistent and easy to apply to funder.
the_biot 3y ago
The Linux Foundation used to have a project to do this (Core Infrastructure Initiative), but it looks like they closed it down in 2021. Not sure if the LF is the right sort of organization for this. But I'm very sure that ESR's involvement is the kiss of death for something like this.
- dtaht 3y ago
  The core infrastructure initiative sucked a lot of air into their room, and accomplished almost nothing.
  - the_biot 3y ago
    Which is not uncommon for the LF, and why I doubt they were ever the right place to host this. Ironically the reason the LF came into existence was IIRC "get Linus a steady paycheck", perilously close to this failed CII.
    - dtaht 3y ago
      There is an even sadder backstory to the whole LF thing, and the time it got created and sucked the air out of the room. I wish we had found a way to get this idea off the ground, and established the academic and early response institution we dreamed of. https://web.archive.org/web/20141217131407/http://icei.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141217131407/http://icei.org/ But I do not want to talk about it, or how I feel about LF, the loss of GPL enforcement, the state of the embedded market, or the demise of linux journal, and of so many other ideals I still hold dear. I just keep plugging on, fixing bufferbloat, and home routers. Y'all caught me on a friday night, after a long week, trying to improve the cybersecurity label initiative at the FCC, as well as girding loins for yet another pointless battle over pointless points over network neutrality debate.
stuaxo 3y ago
They should fund the libjpeg-turbo guy.
Aloha 3y ago
Essentially crowd-sourced Bellcore?
dtaht 3y ago
I am surprised to see this show up again. The idea was ahead of its time, and sank without a trace. Since then, (and during) multiple orgs have attempted to also put some sort of floor below various maintainers. I see these finally beginning to succeed in some places, although I still struggle on a combination of patreon donations and the occasional grant, for what I do. Simon is semi-retired now but I think dnsmasq is mostly out of trouble. I can think of many others still struggling in obscurity. Eric himself, had a bout with stomach cancer, and has mostly withdrawn from the web, tired of the perpetual onslaught and criticism. He´s been working on a new book, for a very long time. IMHO he was the right person at the right time, to get open source into the mainstream, and although many might disagree with him, and his politics, I think his contribution to internet history is assured. ESR´s most recent project was ntpsec.org, which vastly reduced the attack surface of ntp. Another key one used in many places, and needed less now, was reposurgeon: http://www.catb.org/esr/reposurgeon/repository-editing.html http://www.catb.org/esr/reposurgeon/repository-editing.html
- krmboya 3y ago
  I remember noticing reposurgeon when it is used to move emacs over to git http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6524 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6524 Hope ESR is faring well now healthwise. His writings were very influential to younger me getting into computing and led me the to Unix/Linux/FOSS world
- tptacek 3y ago
  I'm no fan of his, but fuck cancer in the eye socket.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

102 points by felurx 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ESR: Opposes communism and all things left with McCarthy-esque fervor. Also ESR: Tries to reinvent Kropotkin's mutual aid from first principles.

robertlagrant 3y ago
Someone else taking your stuff and deciding what to do with it is different to you choosing to give some of your stuff away.
- FireInsight 3y ago
  Classic "communism is when you share your toothbrush" except it's "anarchism is when people steal from you".
  - jancsika 3y ago
    Ooh, I've got one: Classic anarchism is when I share knowledge about how to make your own toothbrush. Communism is when I get stabbed in the back because I didn't help them take over the toothbrush factory.
    - TOGoS 3y ago
      As a commie who feels bad about Kronstadt, I got a chuckle out of this. That kind of back-stabbing has happened too often.
- gremlinunderway 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    This doesn't seem appropriate for HN. If you calmly explain what you mean, as I did, then that would be great.
BryantD 3y ago
It’s funny but if esr actually read Kropotkin without bias I suspect he’d find a lot to agree with. I don’t know if he’d realize how much he’s been co-opted by what Kropotkin would call “the crushing powers of the centralized State.”
dannyobrien 3y ago
I mean, he does in fact identify as an anarchist, though from the individualist anarchist tradition: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/anarchist.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/anarchist.html
- bitwize 3y ago
  He's a right-libertarian/ancap, which is not real anarchism. Real anarchism considers capitalism and private property as forms of control that must also be abolished.

cpach 3y ago

I know that ESR considers himself to be an “LBIP”. Not really convinced that the claim has merit…

tptacek 3y ago
It pretty clearly does not, and given his role in this program, his placement of himself in it makes the whole thing pretty dubious.
- neilv 3y ago
  This would seem consistent with his pre-Web thinking. For example, IIRC, he tried to organize a contest on behalf of the Internet/Usenet, in which all the computer companies would compete to see who could assemble the best "dream" Unix workstation. IIRC, the unusual thing was that, for his part in facilitating this, he would receive one of the dream workstations personally. (Which, at the time, rubbed me the wrong way, because it seemed like other Internet/Usenet projects were done more volunteer-like. But in hindsight, or at least in today's cultural conventions, someone being upfront about wanting a consideration for their effort on a project seems perfectly reasonable. It just seemed unusual to me as a kid, in the hard separation at the time, between the techie non-commercial Internet altruistic utopia we could imagine at times we were creating, and whatever different world the stereotypical MBAs would like so that they could grab wealth and power disproportionately.) Regarding this new thing, ESR might not need the money today, though he might like to be more back in the center of things, and/or to have a positive impact. In early Web times, business wanted to pick up Linux, etc., and he became an "influencer" for open source -- maybe a figurehead, like "here's the counterculture perspective, and you can work with him; now go at it, business types" -- helping to adapt RMS's mission in a way acceptable to business. So he got a windfall when the Linux IPOs were happening: https://news.slashdot.org/story/99/12/10/0821224/esr-writes-on-surprised-by-wealth https://news.slashdot.org/story/99/12/10/0821224/esr-writes-...
  - elcritch 3y ago
    Given ESR was very wealthy by most any standards, it seems very disingenuous to list himself as an LBIP. His need “high”. Seriously did he waste his fortune in which case I don’t feel bad for him or want to support his wasteful ways. Alternatively he’s still well off and just greedy.

vitus 3y ago

Also note http://www.catb.org/esr/loadsharers/ http://www.catb.org/esr/loadsharers/ as ESR's initial list of proposed loadbearers; he additionally links to Dave Täht's loadsharer page: http://flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net/~d/lbip/ http://flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net/~d/lbip/

varjag 3y ago
One on that list is not like the others.
dtaht 3y ago
I should totally take that down. Nobody cared. I got, oh, perhaps 70 dollars a month more into my patreon via this idea... ... but I like to think, that the awareness of the problem itself has propagated all the way up to the highest levels of many governments.

silviot 3y ago

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/

Roark66 3y ago

I'm not sure about this. On one hand the idea sounds good on the other it raises lots of questions. For example, who will decide who is a "worthy load bearer"? Then once people are funded who will manage their workloads? Also, I'm dubious the whole thing is actually needed in the first place. No examples of "load bearers needing funding" were given. DNS was mentioned, but what part of it exactly? Root TLDs are doing pretty well financially from what I heard by selling all the sub domains in their TLDs, so what are we talking about exactly reverse DNS? Things like .org or edu? These are funded by governments. Network wise we have telcos paying for sub sea cables, Internet exchanges like the one in London are self funded (by connection fees). Routing is managed by same telcos and IXs. What are these individual "Internet Load Bearers" that keep the entire Internet afloat without making a dime from it? Usenet admins? I might have paid to keep Usenet alive, but Google bought it all, didn't they?

pdonis 3y ago
> who will decide who is a "worthy load bearer"? If you decide to contribute, you do. You contribute directly to people you think are worthy load bearers. > once people are funded who will manage their workloads? They do. They're already doing that anyway. If you decide to fund someone through this program, you're saying that you think whatever they are already doing is worth supporting. > What are these individual "Internet Load Bearers" that keep the entire Internet afloat without making a dime from it? The very start of the article explains this.
- tptacek 3y ago
  It makes a series of claims, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it "explains" anything.
  - pdonis 3y ago
    It explains the theory under which the "load bearers" initiative operates. If you don't agree with that theory, then of course you're not going to buy their explanation. But for someone who does agree with their theory, the explanation given looks fine to me.

ak217 3y ago

FYI there is a company called Tidelift that funds essential infrastructure project maintainers using subscriptions by companies that depend on them and information about dependencies that the subscribers provide. In my experience, Tidelift has provided the most consistent and meaningful support to maintainers I know, and based on that experience I trust their model and judgment more than ESR's.

luplex 3y ago

There's also Germany's Sovereign Tech Fund, which was set up with a similar goal. It funds curl, for example. https://sovereigntechfund.de/en/ https://sovereigntechfund.de/en/

dtaht 3y ago
I just heard about that recently! I am encouraged! I hope they put some dough under OpenWrt. NLNET has also been a consistent and easy to apply to funder.

the_biot 3y ago

The Linux Foundation used to have a project to do this (Core Infrastructure Initiative), but it looks like they closed it down in 2021. Not sure if the LF is the right sort of organization for this. But I'm very sure that ESR's involvement is the kiss of death for something like this.

dtaht 3y ago
The core infrastructure initiative sucked a lot of air into their room, and accomplished almost nothing.
- the_biot 3y ago
  Which is not uncommon for the LF, and why I doubt they were ever the right place to host this. Ironically the reason the LF came into existence was IIRC "get Linus a steady paycheck", perilously close to this failed CII.
  - dtaht 3y ago
    There is an even sadder backstory to the whole LF thing, and the time it got created and sucked the air out of the room. I wish we had found a way to get this idea off the ground, and established the academic and early response institution we dreamed of. https://web.archive.org/web/20141217131407/http://icei.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141217131407/http://icei.org/ But I do not want to talk about it, or how I feel about LF, the loss of GPL enforcement, the state of the embedded market, or the demise of linux journal, and of so many other ideals I still hold dear. I just keep plugging on, fixing bufferbloat, and home routers. Y'all caught me on a friday night, after a long week, trying to improve the cybersecurity label initiative at the FCC, as well as girding loins for yet another pointless battle over pointless points over network neutrality debate.

stuaxo 3y ago

They should fund the libjpeg-turbo guy.

Aloha 3y ago

Essentially crowd-sourced Bellcore?

dtaht 3y ago

I am surprised to see this show up again. The idea was ahead of its time, and sank without a trace. Since then, (and during) multiple orgs have attempted to also put some sort of floor below various maintainers. I see these finally beginning to succeed in some places, although I still struggle on a combination of patreon donations and the occasional grant, for what I do. Simon is semi-retired now but I think dnsmasq is mostly out of trouble. I can think of many others still struggling in obscurity. Eric himself, had a bout with stomach cancer, and has mostly withdrawn from the web, tired of the perpetual onslaught and criticism. He´s been working on a new book, for a very long time. IMHO he was the right person at the right time, to get open source into the mainstream, and although many might disagree with him, and his politics, I think his contribution to internet history is assured. ESR´s most recent project was ntpsec.org, which vastly reduced the attack surface of ntp. Another key one used in many places, and needed less now, was reposurgeon: http://www.catb.org/esr/reposurgeon/repository-editing.html http://www.catb.org/esr/reposurgeon/repository-editing.html

krmboya 3y ago
I remember noticing reposurgeon when it is used to move emacs over to git http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6524 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6524 Hope ESR is faring well now healthwise. His writings were very influential to younger me getting into computing and led me the to Unix/Linux/FOSS world
tptacek 3y ago
I'm no fan of his, but fuck cancer in the eye socket.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]