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> I've used decades old dollar bills in SE Asia that have been pretty much detached from the US economy for decades and have held value better than bitcoin eve

> I've used decades old dollar bills in SE Asia that have been pretty much detached from the US economy for decades and have held value better than bitcoin ever has. I'm not sure what makes you feel that way. Gold and Bitcoin are up against the dollar in the past decade, and by a significant margin. Bitcoin is up ~225x against the dollar. Gold is up ~50x against the dollar going back five decades. The US dollar is pretty terrible at holding value.

ericmay 3y ago
Yes… but it’s a great currency, unlike gold or Bitcoin. You could also find individual stocks or maybe even the S&P500 and compare those to the dollar as well (and to each other).
- olalonde 3y ago
  Sure. If you want to buy a pad Thai in Thailand, US dollars are probably going to be more widely accepted. On the other hand, if you have savings in an inflating currency, you might want to convert them to a medium that holds value well in the long term, rather than US dollars. That does include S&P500 stocks but those are not bearer instruments and not easily accessible, especially in foreign countries.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Well you can sell the stock and convert it into dollars and then use those. That's something I can do easily today if I wanted regardless of the country I'm in so long as I have the Internet and an ATM. Gold you can't travel with (weight and loss due to theft and also probably actually illegal) and is also not accessible, and Bitcoin you can't buy a coffee with. Other available crypto currencies just do worse jobs than Bitcoin or dollars at their respective functions. The key here is to understand that monetary instruments have pros/cons. Dollars have the con that they aren't a great store of value (and this is by design). Dollars have the pro that they are widely accepted, hold their value in the short term (i.e. not volatile), and are highly liquid. Bitcoin has the pro that it's a great store of value, but has cons like inability to transact. Stocks are liquid but volatile, etc.
    - unusualmonkey 3y ago
      Bitcoin claims to be a great store of value, but is terrible at it. Seriously look at the last 10 year chart of Bitcoin vs USD (or if you want purchasing power) - its far, far too volatile to be a store of value.
    - olalonde 3y ago
      > That's something I can do easily today if I wanted regardless of the country I'm in so long as I have the Internet and an ATM. That's not the case for most people in most countries. There are billions of people who are not even able to open a bank account, let alone a US stock brokerage account. Bitcoin and gold are way more accessible to the average person. I agree that every instrument has a different set of tradeoffs though.
      - mikhailfranco 3y ago
        KYC/AML has made this much worse (on purpose - limit access to financial services without any real effect on terrorism or money laundering). Your bank knows you, perhaps for many years. Then you move country, or lose your phone, and suddenly they have forgotten you, and you face an uphill nightmare to retain your old accounts. A share certificate should be a bearer asset, but it is not accepted anywhere outside the original jurisdiction (e.g. EEA for UK/European shares).
    - landemva 3y ago
      > Gold you can't travel with (weight and loss due to theft and also probably actually illegal) Which country? Last week I travelled on planes in USA and may have carried 35 pounds of silver coin, about a pound of gold coin, and >$10k cash. No problems other than being careful putting bag in overhead bin. Travelling in/out of countries like Turkey with metal in carry-on has always been easy. One time the screener was curious and wanted to see some coin, but no problem. Diversified bearer instruments are a prudent way to proceed into the coming government chaos in next ten years. > Well you can sell the stock and convert it into dollars How well did that work the entire week after 9/11?
      - 3y ago
RandomLensman 3y ago
If you had bought something productive like the S&P500 50 years ago, would have outperformed gold easily. No-one wants to long-term just store value unproductively (which is also bad from a macro perspective).
- olalonde 3y ago
  > If you had bought something productive like the S&P500 50 years ago, would have outperformed gold That's correct. Almost everything beats the US dollar (except other fiat currencies).
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    As I said, currency is by design (targeted positive inflation) not there to be a long-term store of value. Not sure anything but productive assets could really be that.
    - olalonde 3y ago
      > Not sure anything but productive assets could really be that. reply I just mentioned one: gold. It's a bit early to tell for Bitcoin, of course it's probably not going to be doing 225x every decade, but I could see it holding its value better than the US dollar does.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        Not sure about gold in the really long-term. There is some data but those comparisons are quite difficult and often flawed. For example, the amount of work you can buy per unit weight of gold might very well be down noticeably from the middle ages. Bitcoin we can come back to in another 150 years or so.
        olalonde 3y ago
        > For example, the amount of work you can buy per unit weight of gold might very well be down noticeably from the middle ages. Interesting, I didn't know that. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine what other asset would have successfully preserved its value all the way back to the Middle Ages. Certainly not company shares. Real estate maybe? Although that would require maintaining ownership through numerous wars, revolutions and tax regimes.
addicted 3y ago
Your talk about gold being “up against the dollar” shows that you simply don’t understand what a currency is. But don’t worry, there’s an entire scam industry (the other thing you mention) built almost entirely on people not understanding the difference between an asset and a currency and the almost diametrically opposite roles and purposes of the two.

ericmay 3y ago

Yes… but it’s a great currency, unlike gold or Bitcoin. You could also find individual stocks or maybe even the S&P500 and compare those to the dollar as well (and to each other).

olalonde 3y ago
Sure. If you want to buy a pad Thai in Thailand, US dollars are probably going to be more widely accepted. On the other hand, if you have savings in an inflating currency, you might want to convert them to a medium that holds value well in the long term, rather than US dollars. That does include S&P500 stocks but those are not bearer instruments and not easily accessible, especially in foreign countries.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Well you can sell the stock and convert it into dollars and then use those. That's something I can do easily today if I wanted regardless of the country I'm in so long as I have the Internet and an ATM. Gold you can't travel with (weight and loss due to theft and also probably actually illegal) and is also not accessible, and Bitcoin you can't buy a coffee with. Other available crypto currencies just do worse jobs than Bitcoin or dollars at their respective functions. The key here is to understand that monetary instruments have pros/cons. Dollars have the con that they aren't a great store of value (and this is by design). Dollars have the pro that they are widely accepted, hold their value in the short term (i.e. not volatile), and are highly liquid. Bitcoin has the pro that it's a great store of value, but has cons like inability to transact. Stocks are liquid but volatile, etc.
  - unusualmonkey 3y ago
    Bitcoin claims to be a great store of value, but is terrible at it. Seriously look at the last 10 year chart of Bitcoin vs USD (or if you want purchasing power) - its far, far too volatile to be a store of value.
  - olalonde 3y ago
    > That's something I can do easily today if I wanted regardless of the country I'm in so long as I have the Internet and an ATM. That's not the case for most people in most countries. There are billions of people who are not even able to open a bank account, let alone a US stock brokerage account. Bitcoin and gold are way more accessible to the average person. I agree that every instrument has a different set of tradeoffs though.
    - mikhailfranco 3y ago
      KYC/AML has made this much worse (on purpose - limit access to financial services without any real effect on terrorism or money laundering). Your bank knows you, perhaps for many years. Then you move country, or lose your phone, and suddenly they have forgotten you, and you face an uphill nightmare to retain your old accounts. A share certificate should be a bearer asset, but it is not accepted anywhere outside the original jurisdiction (e.g. EEA for UK/European shares).
  - landemva 3y ago
    > Gold you can't travel with (weight and loss due to theft and also probably actually illegal) Which country? Last week I travelled on planes in USA and may have carried 35 pounds of silver coin, about a pound of gold coin, and >$10k cash. No problems other than being careful putting bag in overhead bin. Travelling in/out of countries like Turkey with metal in carry-on has always been easy. One time the screener was curious and wanted to see some coin, but no problem. Diversified bearer instruments are a prudent way to proceed into the coming government chaos in next ten years. > Well you can sell the stock and convert it into dollars How well did that work the entire week after 9/11?
    - 3y ago

RandomLensman 3y ago

If you had bought something productive like the S&P500 50 years ago, would have outperformed gold easily. No-one wants to long-term just store value unproductively (which is also bad from a macro perspective).

olalonde 3y ago
> If you had bought something productive like the S&P500 50 years ago, would have outperformed gold That's correct. Almost everything beats the US dollar (except other fiat currencies).
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  As I said, currency is by design (targeted positive inflation) not there to be a long-term store of value. Not sure anything but productive assets could really be that.
  - olalonde 3y ago
    > Not sure anything but productive assets could really be that. reply I just mentioned one: gold. It's a bit early to tell for Bitcoin, of course it's probably not going to be doing 225x every decade, but I could see it holding its value better than the US dollar does.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Not sure about gold in the really long-term. There is some data but those comparisons are quite difficult and often flawed. For example, the amount of work you can buy per unit weight of gold might very well be down noticeably from the middle ages. Bitcoin we can come back to in another 150 years or so.
      - olalonde 3y ago
        > For example, the amount of work you can buy per unit weight of gold might very well be down noticeably from the middle ages. Interesting, I didn't know that. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine what other asset would have successfully preserved its value all the way back to the Middle Ages. Certainly not company shares. Real estate maybe? Although that would require maintaining ownership through numerous wars, revolutions and tax regimes.

addicted 3y ago

Your talk about gold being “up against the dollar” shows that you simply don’t understand what a currency is. But don’t worry, there’s an entire scam industry (the other thing you mention) built almost entirely on people not understanding the difference between an asset and a currency and the almost diametrically opposite roles and purposes of the two.