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Sorry if I was unclear: I just meant that we could employ tensor-based learning methodology, like ChatGPT uses, to parse the graph representations and understan

Sorry if I was unclear: I just meant that we could employ tensor-based learning methodology, like ChatGPT uses, to parse the graph representations and understand not only their visual layout (ex: no lines crossing), but also their contexts (ex: group functions that all emit events near each other on the graph). Having a machine be able to know what you're trying to do and then clean it up to based on that would be great. Even better, if it could learn how you tend to organize things and pick up "configurations" from that. Adding in "reroute nodes" and stuff when things start looking too loose for your personal liking, or whatever.

hermitcrab 3y ago
Wouldn't that need an awful lot of training data? And different people might have very approaches to laying out a graph, so all that training data would need to come from one person, wouldn't it?
- catapart 3y ago
  Oh, for sure! It would need to be trained on the 'default' way of doing things, just like a linter has a default config. THEN it would need to train on how you code (pin ordering, reroute node layouts, loop layouts, etc), the entire time you work with it. And, of course, in order to train, you would need to be able to tell it "hey, don't do that; I know I did it here but don't mimic that" as well as "mimic this, every single time. Don't use the defaults". Those explicit commands are extremely important for handling the edge casing (similar to newline vs inline brace openings). But, honestly, that kind of thing is the only valuable future for AI that I see, as a creative. I don't need it to write my code for me, but I could sure as hell use it to handle all the tedious bullshit that we've cobbled together as far as tooling, CI, formatting and any other "had to do it this way to make machines understand it" half-measure we've had to take in the past century. The AIs that we see, now, which learn from a huge dataset and then stay mostly inert until the next big update are more toy-like in my figuring. They are standards to measure against and proofs of all kinds of very interesting and useful concepts. But the lasting/useful AIs will be the ones that train alongside your work and ONLY on your work (or, let's face it, the work done in your company that will be shared amongst all corporate employees so that all work can be done more efficiently) in order to provide you with what you would be trying to do anyway.
CyberDildonics 3y ago
This doesn't make any sense. There are already lots of graph UIs that can auto layout. Why would you need 'tensor-based learning' to uncross lines?
- bmitc 3y ago
  > There are already lots of graph UIs that can auto layout. Do you have any references besides Graphviz? I haven't seen much that does anything interesting in terms of weighted or constraint-based layouts.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    It's in a lot of content creation tools already. https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algorithm/ https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algor... https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout?
    - bmitc 3y ago
      Those all look like the same, standard layout algorithms that don't seem to take into account any particular relationship between a group of nodes. Almost every graph layout algorithm I've seen just treats the nodes as individual things to be connected rather than additionally adding some contextual grouping context to various subsets of the nodes, which I think is what is really required for interactive graphs. > What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout? I didn't and don't have a comment on that.
      - catapart 3y ago
        Not to tell you how to comment, but those that don't seek answers with an open mind will often fulfill their own disillusion without your help at all. Which is to say: if the person you're responding to can't intrinsically understand what would be good about having a 'pair programmer AI' cleaning up your graph as you code it, based on things it learned about how you code, then that person is probably not going to benefit from whatever you can explain to them. If they don't have the problem, then their understanding of it will be just as academic as their naysaying of it. And, all things being equal, why bother trying to make someone understand something they've already represented a lack of utility for?
rperez333 3y ago
I would also love to have an auto layout that considers more than just uncrossing lines. I spent some time trying to find a solution for organizing Nuke node graphs (for VFX) that would follow a few additional rules, but I didn't get very far. Not a perfect example, but getting something along these lines would be ideal: https://headjack.io/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Huge_script-1200x1159.png https://headjack.io/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Huge_script-1...

hermitcrab 3y ago

Wouldn't that need an awful lot of training data? And different people might have very approaches to laying out a graph, so all that training data would need to come from one person, wouldn't it?

catapart 3y ago
Oh, for sure! It would need to be trained on the 'default' way of doing things, just like a linter has a default config. THEN it would need to train on how you code (pin ordering, reroute node layouts, loop layouts, etc), the entire time you work with it. And, of course, in order to train, you would need to be able to tell it "hey, don't do that; I know I did it here but don't mimic that" as well as "mimic this, every single time. Don't use the defaults". Those explicit commands are extremely important for handling the edge casing (similar to newline vs inline brace openings). But, honestly, that kind of thing is the only valuable future for AI that I see, as a creative. I don't need it to write my code for me, but I could sure as hell use it to handle all the tedious bullshit that we've cobbled together as far as tooling, CI, formatting and any other "had to do it this way to make machines understand it" half-measure we've had to take in the past century. The AIs that we see, now, which learn from a huge dataset and then stay mostly inert until the next big update are more toy-like in my figuring. They are standards to measure against and proofs of all kinds of very interesting and useful concepts. But the lasting/useful AIs will be the ones that train alongside your work and ONLY on your work (or, let's face it, the work done in your company that will be shared amongst all corporate employees so that all work can be done more efficiently) in order to provide you with what you would be trying to do anyway.

CyberDildonics 3y ago

This doesn't make any sense. There are already lots of graph UIs that can auto layout. Why would you need 'tensor-based learning' to uncross lines?

bmitc 3y ago
> There are already lots of graph UIs that can auto layout. Do you have any references besides Graphviz? I haven't seen much that does anything interesting in terms of weighted or constraint-based layouts.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  It's in a lot of content creation tools already. https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algorithm/ https://saturncloud.io/blog/what-is-a-graph-autolayout-algor... https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/microsoft/automatic-graph-layout https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://github.com/kevtiq/digl https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://www.mindfusion.eu/graph-layout.html https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ https://reactflow.dev/docs/examples/layout/auto-layout/ What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout?
  - bmitc 3y ago
    Those all look like the same, standard layout algorithms that don't seem to take into account any particular relationship between a group of nodes. Almost every graph layout algorithm I've seen just treats the nodes as individual things to be connected rather than additionally adding some contextual grouping context to various subsets of the nodes, which I think is what is really required for interactive graphs. > What do you think 'tensor-based learning' or 'training data' would do for graph layout? I didn't and don't have a comment on that.
    - catapart 3y ago
      Not to tell you how to comment, but those that don't seek answers with an open mind will often fulfill their own disillusion without your help at all. Which is to say: if the person you're responding to can't intrinsically understand what would be good about having a 'pair programmer AI' cleaning up your graph as you code it, based on things it learned about how you code, then that person is probably not going to benefit from whatever you can explain to them. If they don't have the problem, then their understanding of it will be just as academic as their naysaying of it. And, all things being equal, why bother trying to make someone understand something they've already represented a lack of utility for?

rperez333 3y ago

I would also love to have an auto layout that considers more than just uncrossing lines. I spent some time trying to find a solution for organizing Nuke node graphs (for VFX) that would follow a few additional rules, but I didn't get very far. Not a perfect example, but getting something along these lines would be ideal: https://headjack.io/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Huge_script-1200x1159.png https://headjack.io/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Huge_script-1...