9 ms·

My high school used to track attendance on if we showed up every day or not. Was I supposed think this was odd? People can debate endlessly over the benefits,

by JCM9 3y ago

My high school used to track attendance on if we showed up every day or not. Was I supposed think this was odd? People can debate endlessly over the benefits, or not, of working in an office but it’s a perfectly reasonable thing for a company to want its workers to show up at an office and reasonable to measure if they actually do. This is a non story.

saagarjha 3y ago
People who work at Amazon are not high school students.
whynotmaybe 3y ago
Right, and I always have the same question to anyone complaining about this. "If you hire someone to fix the plumbing in your house and you pay him by the hour, would you check that he worked what he's asking or do you pay blindly?" Yes "Amazon bad" and whatnot but in the end it all boils down to the same thing, we live in a society where you want what you pay for, whether you're an individual or a company. And as a plumber, if you don't want to be checked or followed by some annoying customer, you ask to be paid for the completed job, not by the hour.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 2023throwawayy 3y ago
  A more relevant discussion for this crowd I think would be, if you hire a consultant and pay them hourly, do you expect to be able to monitor their screen remotely while they work? Because I’ve been a consultant hired hourly, and I would never agree to that kind of surveillance. If you don’t trust me, don’t hire me. The output of the work should be all that matters. Back to your point, if the plumber fixed the problem for what seems like a reasonable amount of time, why would I need to follow them around?
  - zeckalpha 3y ago
    If they do that sort of thing, it may violate the definition of the contractor status for tax purposes, and you may be reclassified as an employee.
    - buffington 3y ago
      If they do what sort of thing? Monitor stuff? It all depends on the nature of the consultancy agreement. If you work for the financial industry as a consultant you can expect to allow monitoring. I don't know of a single place that makes the law clear, but if you dig in a bit, you can find a lot of resources that describe the legal differences between contractors and employees. One thing that's evident in nearly anything you can find is that contractors basically have no protections. The IRS doesn't care in the slightest if an employer monitors a contractor.
  - elijaht 3y ago
    Feels like you're moving the goalposts. Article doesn't mention anything about monitoring the screen remotely. You could rephrase it as "if you hire a consultant with the expectation that they will attend in person 3 days a week, do you expect to be able to verify that is happening?"
    - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
      I’m not replying to the article. I’m replying to a specific comment. Monitoring remotely is as close as I could get to “following the plumber around”.
  - toomim 3y ago
    Contractors are not employees. This is about employees. The key difference between the two is precisely that employers are not presumed to watch and control how a contractor works.
    - buffington 3y ago
      That is incorrect. That "key difference" is not even remotely a universal truth. I've been a consultant and an employee many times in my career. You can take any variation of the following sentence and it'll remain true: I've worked for a company as a [ hourly consultant | salaried employee | per project consultant ] that [ monitored my every keystroke | monitored attendance | monitored nothing ]. Every variation is possible, and I've seen every variation.
- hooverd 3y ago
  Do you loom over every tradesman you hire with a stopwatch?
  - mywittyname 3y ago
    I sure as shit talk to them when they get there, then talk again when they are ready to leave, ask them to walk me through what they did, and double check the invoice for accuracy. Especially for "subscription" services. I've found it's best to trust, but verify that they are coming out as frequently as you're paying them to and doing everything you're paying them for. It's not even a malice thing; humans make mistakes.
  - whynotmaybe 3y ago
    Depends on the job. I hire you to change the electrical panel and you charge me X to do it, I'll leave you alone and might even leave the house because the electricity is out. If I pay 150$/h to have something fixed, you can be sure I won't be far. But if I want to watch them work, I ask first if it's ok for them.
isykt 3y ago
> People can debate endlessly over the benefits, or not, of working in an office but it’s a perfectly reasonable thing for a company to want its workers to show up at an office and reasonable to measure if they actually do. This is a non story. Germany disagrees with you. This kind of employee surveillance is illegal.
- oxapentane 3y ago
  Guess folk in Germany finds it way more reasonable if this surveillance is carried out by a flesh-and-blood manager? :) I don't really see how it changes anything of substance, except of being formally non-compliant.
  - Muromec 3y ago
    Managers care about things being delivered and aren’t into making waves
    - oxapentane 3y ago
      After four years of filling out attendance sheets with hours per every day worked (this is in Germany btw) with monthly reminder from the manager about it I beg to differ. Even though the job (academic research) doesn't have a strong correlation between output and hours spent on site
- tannhaeuser 3y ago
  Please elaborate. According to a verdict of the Federal Court for Labor from last month [1], not only is tracking an employee's presence legal, it's even mandatory as a necessary consequence of European Court of Justice verdicts. Whereas in Germany before, a trust-based system was common practice at least for white collar jobs, and only the time on top of regular contract time needed tracking AIU. [1]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/arbeitszeiterfassung-stechuhr-urteil-bundesarbeitsgericht-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/arbeitszeiterfassung-stechu... (in German)
  - 3y ago
Muromec 3y ago
It’s all reasonable and fine until you ask Legal whether it’s GDPR compliant and part of operational workbook and start mentioning all the other scary things.
greesil 3y ago
So much carrying of water for our corporate masters here. The pandemic showed that we could be effective remote. So what's the point of this?
- bayindirh 3y ago
  I know this is a heated debate, but from my experience, the situation is way more nuanced. During the pandemic, we have worked remotely for a year or so, and we were bloody effective. However, when I pondered about why is it so, I found out that because we have deep personal, one to one connections already. In other words, we can work effectively because we know each other very well, not only in work setting but in personal setting too. When a remote team is assembled, the window for knowing each other is way narrower. You can work and put good results out, yes. We also do this all the time, because we work with many remote teams as a part of the said team, and we don't see them face to face for years sometimes, however when we meet with these people, even for a couple of days, our relationship and work performance changes. Since we spend time together, we understand each other better and note our underlying characters, inside and outside work. This allows better relationships and faster, way more efficient work. Mails get shorter, things get more fruitful, and work accelerates. WFH and remote work works, up to a point, but there's a glass ceiling. Some people may not feel or want to understand that, but it's there. Face to face communication carries way more information than a webcam + microphone.
  - swader999 3y ago
    Valid point. If a manager wants to motivate an employee they have to get to know them, truly care about them. Can't be faked. A mandatory first month work from the main office, bi annual everyone retreat in one location or twists on these ideas might work for remote only setups. Total surveillance only works for drones and monkeys hitting typewriters. Totally fine for a cash cow monopoly.
  - kyleee 3y ago
    I think you make a great point. I think full remote with maybe quarterly meetups is the best. That way new hires can meet people and relationships can form for the foundation of remote work
Karawebnetwork 3y ago
Infantilization of adult workers.

by JCM9 3y ago

saagarjha 3y ago

People who work at Amazon are not high school students.

whynotmaybe 3y ago

Right, and I always have the same question to anyone complaining about this. "If you hire someone to fix the plumbing in your house and you pay him by the hour, would you check that he worked what he's asking or do you pay blindly?" Yes "Amazon bad" and whatnot but in the end it all boils down to the same thing, we live in a society where you want what you pay for, whether you're an individual or a company. And as a plumber, if you don't want to be checked or followed by some annoying customer, you ask to be paid for the completed job, not by the hour.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
2023throwawayy 3y ago
A more relevant discussion for this crowd I think would be, if you hire a consultant and pay them hourly, do you expect to be able to monitor their screen remotely while they work? Because I’ve been a consultant hired hourly, and I would never agree to that kind of surveillance. If you don’t trust me, don’t hire me. The output of the work should be all that matters. Back to your point, if the plumber fixed the problem for what seems like a reasonable amount of time, why would I need to follow them around?
- zeckalpha 3y ago
  If they do that sort of thing, it may violate the definition of the contractor status for tax purposes, and you may be reclassified as an employee.
  - buffington 3y ago
    If they do what sort of thing? Monitor stuff? It all depends on the nature of the consultancy agreement. If you work for the financial industry as a consultant you can expect to allow monitoring. I don't know of a single place that makes the law clear, but if you dig in a bit, you can find a lot of resources that describe the legal differences between contractors and employees. One thing that's evident in nearly anything you can find is that contractors basically have no protections. The IRS doesn't care in the slightest if an employer monitors a contractor.
- elijaht 3y ago
  Feels like you're moving the goalposts. Article doesn't mention anything about monitoring the screen remotely. You could rephrase it as "if you hire a consultant with the expectation that they will attend in person 3 days a week, do you expect to be able to verify that is happening?"
  - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
    I’m not replying to the article. I’m replying to a specific comment. Monitoring remotely is as close as I could get to “following the plumber around”.
- toomim 3y ago
  Contractors are not employees. This is about employees. The key difference between the two is precisely that employers are not presumed to watch and control how a contractor works.
  - buffington 3y ago
    That is incorrect. That "key difference" is not even remotely a universal truth. I've been a consultant and an employee many times in my career. You can take any variation of the following sentence and it'll remain true: I've worked for a company as a [ hourly consultant | salaried employee | per project consultant ] that [ monitored my every keystroke | monitored attendance | monitored nothing ]. Every variation is possible, and I've seen every variation.
hooverd 3y ago
Do you loom over every tradesman you hire with a stopwatch?
- mywittyname 3y ago
  I sure as shit talk to them when they get there, then talk again when they are ready to leave, ask them to walk me through what they did, and double check the invoice for accuracy. Especially for "subscription" services. I've found it's best to trust, but verify that they are coming out as frequently as you're paying them to and doing everything you're paying them for. It's not even a malice thing; humans make mistakes.
- whynotmaybe 3y ago
  Depends on the job. I hire you to change the electrical panel and you charge me X to do it, I'll leave you alone and might even leave the house because the electricity is out. If I pay 150$/h to have something fixed, you can be sure I won't be far. But if I want to watch them work, I ask first if it's ok for them.

isykt 3y ago

> People can debate endlessly over the benefits, or not, of working in an office but it’s a perfectly reasonable thing for a company to want its workers to show up at an office and reasonable to measure if they actually do. This is a non story. Germany disagrees with you. This kind of employee surveillance is illegal.

oxapentane 3y ago
Guess folk in Germany finds it way more reasonable if this surveillance is carried out by a flesh-and-blood manager? :) I don't really see how it changes anything of substance, except of being formally non-compliant.
- Muromec 3y ago
  Managers care about things being delivered and aren’t into making waves
  - oxapentane 3y ago
    After four years of filling out attendance sheets with hours per every day worked (this is in Germany btw) with monthly reminder from the manager about it I beg to differ. Even though the job (academic research) doesn't have a strong correlation between output and hours spent on site
tannhaeuser 3y ago
Please elaborate. According to a verdict of the Federal Court for Labor from last month [1], not only is tracking an employee's presence legal, it's even mandatory as a necessary consequence of European Court of Justice verdicts. Whereas in Germany before, a trust-based system was common practice at least for white collar jobs, and only the time on top of regular contract time needed tracking AIU. [1]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/arbeitszeiterfassung-stechuhr-urteil-bundesarbeitsgericht-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/arbeitszeiterfassung-stechu... (in German)
- 3y ago

Muromec 3y ago

It’s all reasonable and fine until you ask Legal whether it’s GDPR compliant and part of operational workbook and start mentioning all the other scary things.

greesil 3y ago

So much carrying of water for our corporate masters here. The pandemic showed that we could be effective remote. So what's the point of this?

bayindirh 3y ago
I know this is a heated debate, but from my experience, the situation is way more nuanced. During the pandemic, we have worked remotely for a year or so, and we were bloody effective. However, when I pondered about why is it so, I found out that because we have deep personal, one to one connections already. In other words, we can work effectively because we know each other very well, not only in work setting but in personal setting too. When a remote team is assembled, the window for knowing each other is way narrower. You can work and put good results out, yes. We also do this all the time, because we work with many remote teams as a part of the said team, and we don't see them face to face for years sometimes, however when we meet with these people, even for a couple of days, our relationship and work performance changes. Since we spend time together, we understand each other better and note our underlying characters, inside and outside work. This allows better relationships and faster, way more efficient work. Mails get shorter, things get more fruitful, and work accelerates. WFH and remote work works, up to a point, but there's a glass ceiling. Some people may not feel or want to understand that, but it's there. Face to face communication carries way more information than a webcam + microphone.
- swader999 3y ago
  Valid point. If a manager wants to motivate an employee they have to get to know them, truly care about them. Can't be faked. A mandatory first month work from the main office, bi annual everyone retreat in one location or twists on these ideas might work for remote only setups. Total surveillance only works for drones and monkeys hitting typewriters. Totally fine for a cash cow monopoly.
- kyleee 3y ago
  I think you make a great point. I think full remote with maybe quarterly meetups is the best. That way new hires can meet people and relationships can form for the foundation of remote work

Karawebnetwork 3y ago

Infantilization of adult workers.