5 ms·

I read a good analogy recently: The titanic (cloud) is sinking, the engine room is already full of water, but the people in the ballroom (execs) are still cele

I read a good analogy recently: The titanic (cloud) is sinking, the engine room is already full of water, but the people in the ballroom (execs) are still celebrating with champagne, even though the warnings have been called multiple times.

catchnear4321 3y ago
drown in champagne or drown in filthy sea water? for some, this sounds like a nonsensical choice. for others, a defining moment of leadership.
- cf141q5325 3y ago
  https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/charles-joughin-titanic-anniversary-april-15-drunk https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/charles-joughin-titanic... >How a baker survived the Titanic sinking by getting really drunk Bottoms up!
  - catchnear4321 3y ago
    just coming back a few later to say thanks, you tha real mvp.
dudeinjapan 3y ago
This is the cloud so you can’t call it the Titanic—-its the Hindenburg.
ChatGTP 3y ago
I read this recently, I found it chillingly similar to our current situation, a truly great read: The Machine Stops by E.M Foster https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/the%20machine%20stops.pdf https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/th...
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  It's pretty impressive that the most accurate depiction of how the future will play out was written before even computers were a thing. Perhaps also a bit sad in what that says about us.
swexbe 3y ago
This is clearly an overreaction. Cloud will be fine.
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  He defeats Sephiroth at the end of the game. Maybe he'll defeat Microsoft too.
  - reuben364 3y ago
    Typical JRPG. Start with saving a cat, end with fighting Microsoft.
hnlmorg 3y ago
How is that a good analogy when the cloud computing sector has been growing year on year? There's literally no evidence to support that analogy. It's not even remotely accurate. I'm not saying cloud computing is the solution to every problem, and nor should it be, but calling it a sinking ship is simply absurd. Frankly, I grow so tired of people thinking everything is a boolean choice. The real problem with the cloud is people who see things as binary statements: "cloud is cheaper", "cloud is more expensive", "self hosting is easier", "cloud is easier", "cloud is more secure", "on-prem is more secure", etc. All of those statements are true just as all of those statements are false. The reality is far more nuanced and it depends entirely on the constraints of your business at that point in time. Such as what engineers / skill sets do you have on your team? Capital to buy hardware, your physical location, the product you're trying to build... etc. But the problem with nuanced arguments is they're subjective to the immediate problem you're trying to solve. So you cannot debate them with other people as those other people are trying to solve different problems with different teams and different tools. And thus we end up with people posting bullshit blanket statements like "the cloud is a sinking ship" or the linked article that boasts that the cloud is less secure.
- imchillyb 3y ago
  Security researchers agree with OP and disagree vehemently with your assessment. Cloud is centralizing. Centralizing, instead of distributing, is bad. Centralization broadens and expands the attack surface and creates a honey pot for attackers. This isn’t hyperbole nor is it alarmist. This is reality playing out before us in real time.
  - epups 3y ago
    "Security researchers agree" is a very broad statement. I don't believe there is a consensus at all. Fragmentation creates different problems than centralization, but it isn't a magical bullet either. Depending on your resources, you are far, far better off trusting even Microsoft than trying to come up with your own security implementation.
    - 3y ago
cf141q5325 3y ago
Arguably much of this is caused by governments getting into the zeroday market / blackhat position removing the incentives to fix stuff. IT security got degraded so far that it starts effecting the economy. There was a reason initial cryptocontrol had exceptions for businesses. Bloated security theater being profitable also doesnt help. One example is smartphones as TAN generators for online banking replacing TAN lists. While you can now charge customers per SMS, the second factor got quite a bit more easy to attack.
- tomrod 3y ago
  > Arguably much of this is caused by governments getting into the zeroday market / blackhat position removing the incentives to fix stuff. I don't see the argument here. CISA posts issues they find, are they intended to be comprehensive?
  - cf141q5325 3y ago
    Unfortunately i dont see yours either. We have governments arguing against stronger encryption due to fears of going dark. Which means against having secure systems. This is in addition to a lot of government agencies sitting on, and investing into the knowledge about vulnerabilities. Some of the more public ones getting fixed doesnt change the overall vulnerability of the system. There is a clear incentive mismatch. One cant pretend that those vulnerabilities are "safe" due to only spooks knowing of them. If you can find them, so can others. Especially if you are actively exploiting them. I would argue that this shows both an unwillingness to accept improvements in security as well as actively degrading the current state. And this is before talking about governments actively adding vulnerabilities, which now even possible by law in some jurisdictions.

catchnear4321 3y ago

drown in champagne or drown in filthy sea water? for some, this sounds like a nonsensical choice. for others, a defining moment of leadership.

cf141q5325 3y ago
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/charles-joughin-titanic-anniversary-april-15-drunk https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/charles-joughin-titanic... >How a baker survived the Titanic sinking by getting really drunk Bottoms up!
- catchnear4321 3y ago
  just coming back a few later to say thanks, you tha real mvp.

dudeinjapan 3y ago

This is the cloud so you can’t call it the Titanic—-its the Hindenburg.

ChatGTP 3y ago

I read this recently, I found it chillingly similar to our current situation, a truly great read: The Machine Stops by E.M Foster https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/the%20machine%20stops.pdf https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/th...

CatWChainsaw 3y ago
It's pretty impressive that the most accurate depiction of how the future will play out was written before even computers were a thing. Perhaps also a bit sad in what that says about us.

swexbe 3y ago

This is clearly an overreaction. Cloud will be fine.

doublerabbit 3y ago
He defeats Sephiroth at the end of the game. Maybe he'll defeat Microsoft too.
- reuben364 3y ago
  Typical JRPG. Start with saving a cat, end with fighting Microsoft.

hnlmorg 3y ago

How is that a good analogy when the cloud computing sector has been growing year on year? There's literally no evidence to support that analogy. It's not even remotely accurate. I'm not saying cloud computing is the solution to every problem, and nor should it be, but calling it a sinking ship is simply absurd. Frankly, I grow so tired of people thinking everything is a boolean choice. The real problem with the cloud is people who see things as binary statements: "cloud is cheaper", "cloud is more expensive", "self hosting is easier", "cloud is easier", "cloud is more secure", "on-prem is more secure", etc. All of those statements are true just as all of those statements are false. The reality is far more nuanced and it depends entirely on the constraints of your business at that point in time. Such as what engineers / skill sets do you have on your team? Capital to buy hardware, your physical location, the product you're trying to build... etc. But the problem with nuanced arguments is they're subjective to the immediate problem you're trying to solve. So you cannot debate them with other people as those other people are trying to solve different problems with different teams and different tools. And thus we end up with people posting bullshit blanket statements like "the cloud is a sinking ship" or the linked article that boasts that the cloud is less secure.

imchillyb 3y ago
Security researchers agree with OP and disagree vehemently with your assessment. Cloud is centralizing. Centralizing, instead of distributing, is bad. Centralization broadens and expands the attack surface and creates a honey pot for attackers. This isn’t hyperbole nor is it alarmist. This is reality playing out before us in real time.
- epups 3y ago
  "Security researchers agree" is a very broad statement. I don't believe there is a consensus at all. Fragmentation creates different problems than centralization, but it isn't a magical bullet either. Depending on your resources, you are far, far better off trusting even Microsoft than trying to come up with your own security implementation.
  - 3y ago

cf141q5325 3y ago

Arguably much of this is caused by governments getting into the zeroday market / blackhat position removing the incentives to fix stuff. IT security got degraded so far that it starts effecting the economy. There was a reason initial cryptocontrol had exceptions for businesses. Bloated security theater being profitable also doesnt help. One example is smartphones as TAN generators for online banking replacing TAN lists. While you can now charge customers per SMS, the second factor got quite a bit more easy to attack.

tomrod 3y ago
> Arguably much of this is caused by governments getting into the zeroday market / blackhat position removing the incentives to fix stuff. I don't see the argument here. CISA posts issues they find, are they intended to be comprehensive?
- cf141q5325 3y ago
  Unfortunately i dont see yours either. We have governments arguing against stronger encryption due to fears of going dark. Which means against having secure systems. This is in addition to a lot of government agencies sitting on, and investing into the knowledge about vulnerabilities. Some of the more public ones getting fixed doesnt change the overall vulnerability of the system. There is a clear incentive mismatch. One cant pretend that those vulnerabilities are "safe" due to only spooks knowing of them. If you can find them, so can others. Especially if you are actively exploiting them. I would argue that this shows both an unwillingness to accept improvements in security as well as actively degrading the current state. And this is before talking about governments actively adding vulnerabilities, which now even possible by law in some jurisdictions.