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> Projects like WINE tried, but there's just not enough you can do only with open-source contributors, with such a massive undertaking. Proton is basically jus

by arp242 3y ago

> Projects like WINE tried, but there's just not enough you can do only with open-source contributors, with such a massive undertaking. Proton is basically just Wine, right? Aside from that CodeWeavers has been doing commercial Wine development for a long time. Almost all of Wine already existed before Valve got involved. Yes, they help out too, and that's great, but people are hugely over-crediting Valve (and here, hugely under-crediting all those open source contributors, who did the overwhelming majority of the work).

4death4 3y ago
According to the article, Steam OS also uses two Direct 3D to Vulkan translation libraries. That’s obviously a big part of running a game.
- arp242 3y ago
  Neither are written by Valve.
  - 4death4 3y ago
    Valve is a contributor, so that’s not an entirely true statement. And I was replying to your original statement that “Proton is just wine”, which again, is not true.
    - arp242 3y ago
      I never said "Proton is just wine". I said "Proton is basically just Wine". Leaving out that qualifier makes a big difference.
      - 4death4 3y ago
        Basically means: “in the most essential respects; fundamentally.” So in this case, no, omitting the word basically makes no meaningful change to the meaning of your sentence.
noirscape 3y ago
Proton is Wine with some extra patches; the main project has some pretty hefty requirements in terms of coding standards to reduce possible regressions, which means that on the whole it can be pretty slow to get compatibility. Gaming is just one subsection of the Win32 API that doesn't touch on all parts of said API. Proton basically has a bunch of extra patches that might introduce a regression in upstream Wine but won't in the context of videogames. Proton patches also usually get upstreamed when they reach "proper" maturity/are fully tested if I'm not mistaken so long-term, Proton benefits the rest of the wine ecosystem too. As for the open source contributors - Valve iirc just hired some of the previously self-employed wine developers and the guy who got I think it was a Vulkan compat layer working on Linux. I'm pretty sure Codeweavers has the same model although I don't think they upstream patches nearly as much? They're also very much more targeting business customers on Apple devices who need to run some obscure (usually old) Windows program rather than the entire scope of Win32 software. Basically it's best to look at proton the way you sometimes get a "next generation" fork of a popular piece of FOSS - higher dev speed and more features, however more focused into keeping a single area working than on the overall health of the upstream (which does get contributed back to for the features that help the upstream).
- arp242 3y ago
  > I'm pretty sure Codeweavers has the same model although I don't think they upstream patches nearly as much? According to Wikipedia "all changes made to the Wine source code are covered by the LGPL and publicly available", but I don't really know from first-hand experience.
- a1o 3y ago
  CodeWeaver is the major force behind wine, wine devs that aren't volunteers are employees of CodeWeaver, aren't they?
  - em-bee 3y ago
    most likely, although by now they also may be employees of valve. but valve is also working with codeweaver. btw: i consider codeweaver somewhat the unsung hero of the linux desktop. there is no other company in this world that stakes their success entirely on the success of the linux desktop, or maybe on the demise on the windows desktop, because wine is the only software tool that will never ever be useful running on windows.
JodieBenitez 3y ago
> Proton is basically just Wine, right? That's the thing with desktop linux: almost everything already exists. But there's always an extra mile to go. Sometimes it's tiny bugs, sometimes it's bad default settings, sometimes it's questionnable UI... all things that may not be a problem for tweakers but will stop people that want a good out-of-the-box experience. I'm glad commercial companies go that extra mile. But yes, props to wine devs. Well deserved.
- arp242 3y ago
  The major bit from "extra mile" here being "adding a button in their proprietary vendor lock-in platform".
  - em-bee 3y ago
    i didn't check but i believe the major part of the extra mile is fixing 1000s of tiny little bugs that break games. it should be possible to verify that by looking at the wine changelog. the rest is creating a smooth experience downloading and running games. smoother than any alternative (like playonlinux or lutris)
    - arp242 3y ago
      Wine has worked surprisingly well for a long time, well before Valve got involved, although compatibility was never perfect of course (and still isn't!) I don't think they had to "fix 1000s of tiny little bugs that break games". Codeweavers has been selling commercial Wine-based solutions for a long time. It's easy to offer a better experience if you also own the actual storefront; that was kind of my point. And as I said, I'm sure Valve contributes; but describing wine as some sort of semi-usable half-working project before their involvement is rather inaccurate.
      - colordrops 3y ago
        Codeweavers selling a commercial product is a major sign that the "community edition" of wine is not up to snuff.
eigenspace 3y ago
Proton is not just WINE. It is a bundle of many open source technologies including WINE. Proton was a major step forward in the consolidation and simplification of running Windows games on Linux. It also included a ton of upstream contributions to all the bundled technology by full time paid Valve employees.

by arp242 3y ago

4death4 3y ago

According to the article, Steam OS also uses two Direct 3D to Vulkan translation libraries. That’s obviously a big part of running a game.

arp242 3y ago
Neither are written by Valve.
- 4death4 3y ago
  Valve is a contributor, so that’s not an entirely true statement. And I was replying to your original statement that “Proton is just wine”, which again, is not true.
  - arp242 3y ago
    I never said "Proton is just wine". I said "Proton is basically just Wine". Leaving out that qualifier makes a big difference.
    - 4death4 3y ago
      Basically means: “in the most essential respects; fundamentally.” So in this case, no, omitting the word basically makes no meaningful change to the meaning of your sentence.

noirscape 3y ago

Proton is Wine with some extra patches; the main project has some pretty hefty requirements in terms of coding standards to reduce possible regressions, which means that on the whole it can be pretty slow to get compatibility. Gaming is just one subsection of the Win32 API that doesn't touch on all parts of said API. Proton basically has a bunch of extra patches that might introduce a regression in upstream Wine but won't in the context of videogames. Proton patches also usually get upstreamed when they reach "proper" maturity/are fully tested if I'm not mistaken so long-term, Proton benefits the rest of the wine ecosystem too. As for the open source contributors - Valve iirc just hired some of the previously self-employed wine developers and the guy who got I think it was a Vulkan compat layer working on Linux. I'm pretty sure Codeweavers has the same model although I don't think they upstream patches nearly as much? They're also very much more targeting business customers on Apple devices who need to run some obscure (usually old) Windows program rather than the entire scope of Win32 software. Basically it's best to look at proton the way you sometimes get a "next generation" fork of a popular piece of FOSS - higher dev speed and more features, however more focused into keeping a single area working than on the overall health of the upstream (which does get contributed back to for the features that help the upstream).

arp242 3y ago
> I'm pretty sure Codeweavers has the same model although I don't think they upstream patches nearly as much? According to Wikipedia "all changes made to the Wine source code are covered by the LGPL and publicly available", but I don't really know from first-hand experience.
a1o 3y ago
CodeWeaver is the major force behind wine, wine devs that aren't volunteers are employees of CodeWeaver, aren't they?
- em-bee 3y ago
  most likely, although by now they also may be employees of valve. but valve is also working with codeweaver. btw: i consider codeweaver somewhat the unsung hero of the linux desktop. there is no other company in this world that stakes their success entirely on the success of the linux desktop, or maybe on the demise on the windows desktop, because wine is the only software tool that will never ever be useful running on windows.

JodieBenitez 3y ago

> Proton is basically just Wine, right? That's the thing with desktop linux: almost everything already exists. But there's always an extra mile to go. Sometimes it's tiny bugs, sometimes it's bad default settings, sometimes it's questionnable UI... all things that may not be a problem for tweakers but will stop people that want a good out-of-the-box experience. I'm glad commercial companies go that extra mile. But yes, props to wine devs. Well deserved.

arp242 3y ago
The major bit from "extra mile" here being "adding a button in their proprietary vendor lock-in platform".
- em-bee 3y ago
  i didn't check but i believe the major part of the extra mile is fixing 1000s of tiny little bugs that break games. it should be possible to verify that by looking at the wine changelog. the rest is creating a smooth experience downloading and running games. smoother than any alternative (like playonlinux or lutris)
  - arp242 3y ago
    Wine has worked surprisingly well for a long time, well before Valve got involved, although compatibility was never perfect of course (and still isn't!) I don't think they had to "fix 1000s of tiny little bugs that break games". Codeweavers has been selling commercial Wine-based solutions for a long time. It's easy to offer a better experience if you also own the actual storefront; that was kind of my point. And as I said, I'm sure Valve contributes; but describing wine as some sort of semi-usable half-working project before their involvement is rather inaccurate.
    - colordrops 3y ago
      Codeweavers selling a commercial product is a major sign that the "community edition" of wine is not up to snuff.

eigenspace 3y ago

Proton is not just WINE. It is a bundle of many open source technologies including WINE. Proton was a major step forward in the consolidation and simplification of running Windows games on Linux. It also included a ton of upstream contributions to all the bundled technology by full time paid Valve employees.